chrisphr Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) I'm pretty excited to start using and learning how to effectively use hand tools. After watching Marc's video on sharpening, seems like water stones are a great way to go. Can someone help me out with what separates expensive stones from inexpensive stones? Also, a DMT diamond plate is on the pricy side. Are there other options out there for maintaining the stones? Edited September 20, 2015 by chrisphr Correct spelling error Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Harvey Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 I have a set of Norton water stones and also a set of King stones that cost about half as much as the Nortons. I can tell you the Norton stones work better but King stones will do the job. You HAVE to have something to flatten the water stones so I would recommend an extra coarse 3" by 8" diamond stone ($50-$60 woodcraft has them on sale sometimes) which you can use to shape bevels, flatten backs, and flatten the water stones. An alternative is the Norton carborundum flattening stone at $30 but you won't use that on iron, just the stones. Which grits? For sure one 6000 or 8000 for final polish microbevel. If the blade needs a fresh bevel then use a 1000 grit. Schwarz goes right from the 1000 grit at 25 degrees to 8000 microbevel at 30 degrees. I have found blades cut significantly better if stropped on a leather pad. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) Mainly what separates stones by cost is speed, resistance to dishing, and feel, but feel will only come with experience anyway. I got by for years with a 9x12 granite surface plate from Woodcraft and 80 grit wet-or-dry sandpaper for flattening. It works just fine for Norton stones, which is not a bad place to start. You can find them on sale in classifieds fairly regularly as people move up the stone ladder. Edited September 20, 2015 by Tom King 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisphr Posted September 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 Awesome, thanks for the tips. I think I was spooked by the price of $180 for a DMT dia flat lapping plate. $50 for a diamond stone or some sandpaper and a hunk of granite are back into reasonable price ranges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barron Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 Sandpaper on mdf or glass will also work for flattening stones. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 I sharpen with shapton stones in 1k 5k and 8k. All are flattened w I think 220 on a granite plate. It never takes me more than 20-30 seconds on the sandpaper to get a flat stone. The shapton sharpening stones are not super expensive but not all that cheap either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamV Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 Heavy glass shelving from the local box store works great as a low budget flat surface for mounting sandpaper to flatten your stones. I'm happy with the Norton set 220/1000 and 4000/8000 I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Harvey Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 So, those using sandpaper to flatten your stones, what paper do you use? I read one post from a guy that ran his stones up to 600 grit. Seems a bit obsessive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 240 wet/dry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Dry Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 Dmt lapping plates are expensive. However, the stone sized plates are comparable in price to good water stones. They sharpen very fast and you don't have to worry about flattening them. I like to do the majority of the sharpening on the dmt's Final polish can be done on a water stone. This means you will spend less time flattening stones. I also think the dmt's are dead simple to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) So, those using sandpaper to flatten your stones, what paper do you use? I read one post from a guy that ran his stones up to 600 grit. Seems a bit obsessive.I use 80 grit for every stone, and it works fine-no finer grits needed. It's some high quality Wet-or-Dry that I found online a few years back, and lasts longer than the hardware store stuff. Sorry, I don't remember the name, but it was several dollars a sheet, and lasts a long time. I just leave it upright behind the faucet to dry until next needed. I have that setup in a house we're working on now, and it works fine even on a SSII 13k. I have an Atoma sheet on another plate in the shop, and it does work better, but the sandpaper is surprisingly effective. Found it: http://www.multitechproducts.com/carborundum-silicon-carbide-diamond-grit-wet-or-dry-sandpaper/ The granite plate is a tight fit in one side of a stainless steel double kitchen sink. I just run water over it while using it, and the stones are in the other sink. Edited September 26, 2015 by Tom King Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisphr Posted September 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 My sharpening stuff! Thanks for the tips on stone quality and flattening. Got the 1000 and 8000. Does adding a 5000 just speed thing up to create the primary bevel, or does the middle grit have other benefits? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortan D Posted September 27, 2015 Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 I think you need a 4000 to 5000 stone as an intermediate step. You will be putting grinding marks with the 1000, then use the 4000 to remove them, finally using the 8000 for honing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponderingturtle Posted September 27, 2015 Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 It would speed up the process but creating the primary edge is 1000 grit or less, at the higher grits your are polishing it. But a 5000 it is going to get rid of the 1000 grit much faster than the 8000 would and leave smaller scratches for the 8000 to clean up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 (edited) Got to be a careful about fixating on specific grits... One mfg's 1200 is another mfg's 4K... There are different stone grading scales and mfg's don't universally apply the scales uniformly -- sorry, but it's just the way it is... Some basic waterstone guidelines:You need three basic stones: a fast metal remover, an edge former and polisher... Note: Some very knowledgeable folks use 'scary sharp' or diamond plates as the fast metal remover...The metallurgy drives the optimal stone matrix. For example: a hard steel is best-honed on a hard stone...While diamond plates are really handy, you don't have to have one to flatten stones: sandpaper & glass/granite/etc is fine -- not optimal, but fine.. Today, I use a diamond plate. For a decade or two, I used a granite surface + wet/dry 240... While the results are exactly the same, the cost is certainly not...Price doesn't necessarily translate to 'better'. It more precisely maps to speed of cutting the steel, resistance to dishing, and the longevity of the matrix. For high-carbon steels, softer & slower clay-matrix stones are AOK. If you have tough steels (say D2), then you could benefit from harder/faster stones (magnesia-based matrices). Steels in the middle (say A2, PMV-11, etc) permit a wider selection of stone matrices (artificial clay-matrix, ceramic-matrix, etc)...Harder stones that resist dishing and cut steel quickly tend to have more expensive matrices and therefore cost more...You've got the course, edge former and polisher... A mid-grit stone can speed-up your workflow. But it depends on what your sharpening...@OP - If you provide a bit more info on what you are sharpening, then we may be able to provide more precise guidance. Edited September 28, 2015 by hhh 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisphr Posted September 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 @OP - If you provide a bit more info on what you are sharpening, then we may be able to provide more precise guidance.Triple h, amazed at the depth of your knowledge. 90% chisels and plane blades. I have two lie Nielsen planes with stock blades, low angle block (which I've had a year), low angle Jack that has yet to taste wood of any kind. Chisels chrome vanadium, German brand, MHG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estesbubba Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 According to this site it looks like you might have received grey market stones because of the Japanese labels. Don't know if that matters but I thought I would point it out. http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/category-s/268.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim L. Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 According to this site it looks like you might have received grey market stones because of the Japanese labels. Don't know if that matters but I thought I would point it out. http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/category-s/268.htmI have the same stones, they work great. "Grey Market" means he bought the version for sale in Japan and not the USA- they all come from the same company, but the Japanese market is a lot more competitive and thus prices are lower. I have a very hard time believing that the climate in Japan is so different from every possible place in the USA that they need to formulate their stones differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 (edited) ==>Gray MarketThere is a great deal of info on this subject – just google Shapton cracking, Shapton crazing, Shapton gray market, etc...What gives?Well, there’s the ‘official verbiage’: the 'Pro' matrix is tweaked so that there is less chance of surface cracking when moving from a water bath to ambient in Arizona (105F, 18%RH) -- i.e. rapid surface drying...Then there is the unofficial narrative: as a species, hard matrix stones are prone to surface cracking, Shapton ceramic-matrix stones are more prone than others and the 'Pro' up-charge covers replacements...So take your pick... Either way, surface cracking is real; if your stone cracks, you get a free replacement if it’s stamped ‘Pro’, but not if it’s stamped ‘Kuromaku’. So buying gray market stones simply means that if you get surface cracking, you're on your own... Do I really believe the "we specially formulated our 'pro' for shops in the South Western US?" -- no. Do I believe that there's a possibility that some baking settings are adjusted to lower the chances of surface cracking? -- maybe. Do I believe that one version of the same stone is 'better' or should 'cost more' - nope... Do I believe that the up-charge is simply there to cover replacement costs -- most definitely...Have I seen surface cracking -- yes. Have any of my stones cracked -- yes; Does surface cracking impact efficacy -- it depends, but mostly no. Does it impact longevity - probably.We could do a deep dive into soaking requirements, drying requirements, storage requirements and how all of that contributes to surface cracking, but I haven’t had my morning caffeine infusion. If you are really interested, I did a lengthy posting on this a few years ago -- search WTO. Also, and there are entire websites dedicated to waterstone sharpening where you will learn far more than you would ever need (or want)... Edited September 28, 2015 by hhh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 I have the same stones that were ordered directly from shapton through their amazon store. I actually called Shapton and asked if the amazon shapton was the same company and they confirmed they do run that amazon store and they are the same products. IF in case these stone are inferior, maybe they shouldn't be selling them here. Personally, I love the stones. I sharpen irons, chisels, kitchen knives, hunting knives and they work great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark J Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 Got to be a careful about fixating on specific grits... One mfg's 1200 is another mfg's 4K... There are different stone grading scales and mfg's don't universally apply the scales uniformly -- sorry, but it's just the way it is... I had been looking into the sharpening question: as in what should I get. I heard about the scary sharp system and saw Marc's video, and some other information in various books and web sites. The message I took home was that are a hundred different systems and they all work, pick one and stick with it. OK, but I couldn't understand how you could get "the same" edge with 280 or even 1500 grit sandpaper and an 8000 grit stone. I figured that there had to be different grit systems, but could never find any discussion/information to confirm that. Then one day I was reading Shwarz's book on handplanes and I came across this information which was a casual sidebar in the book:Sandpaper in the United States is measured using the CAMI system while the Japanese use another system, and still others use the particle size in microns. I'll try to reproduce the chart, but not sure how well that will display on your screen.Japanese CAMI Microns ------- 36 535-------- 80 192150 100 141-------- 120 116-------- 150 97-------- 220 60240 ---- 58360 320 361000 700 142000 ----- 7.54000 1500 36000 ----- 28000 ----- 1.210000 2000 1 No there won't be a quiz later, and maybe this is common knowledge, but I was surprised at the disparity. I get the impression from hhh that there are other systems out there as well. My vote is that all the manufacturers out there should shift to using microns--or at least pick one system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 Off the top of my head: Micron Grit, Mesh-D, Mesh-W, Micro-Mesh, CAMI (sandpaper), FEPA-A (sandpaper), FEPA-B (sandpaper), DIN (sandpaper and sandblasting), Apex, JIS (waterstones), New-JIS (waterstones), and a few others...As noted, what makes this confusing is lack of standardization. For example, some waterstone manufactures use JIS and some use New-JIS --- making it hard to compare one mfg’s grit against another mfg’s grit... Some of this is done for marketing reasons...There are comparison tables out there, but they are typically proprietary... I’ve got a fairly complete PDF and will eMail the publisher to see if I can post it on WTO. You can get partial tables by googling... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark J Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 Off the top of my head: Micron Grit, Mesh-D, Mesh-W, Micro-Mesh, CAMI (sandpaper), FEPA-A (sandpaper), FEPA-B (sandpaper), DIN (sandpaper and sandblasting), Apex, JIS (waterstones), New-JIS (waterstones), and a few others... Oh my Lord in a bright red Ford... Well it's a big help to guys like me just getting it out there: The gritty truth is that there is no truth in grit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 I saw a guy on reddit switch from his Norton set to a set cobbled together from Harbor Freight and some other ultra cheap sources. He indicated there was a difference but it wasn't nearly as extensive as one might think. So he went from $250+ to $12. As a test. I mean, he isn't insane, he went back to his original stuff. But it's a valid point. I picked up DMT Diamond plates and a norton 4000/8000 right after I read his post. So I learned that lesson super-well, I figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 Graham hones on a 100 year old paving brick...? Most of us don't do enough for micro differences to matter. Wise or obsessive is the distinction to make. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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