Tony Wilkins Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 15 minutes ago, James Wright said: LN's are fantastic you will not go wrong with them. But if I am going new I go Bad Ax http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/ His hacksaws are great - I have 2. He doesn't make new handsaws but his restored vintage are top notch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 3 minutes ago, Tony Wilkins said: His hacksaws are great - I have 2. He doesn't make new handsaws but his restored vintage are top notch. Curious why you think they do not make new saws? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 17 minutes ago, Tony Wilkins said: His hacksaws are great - I have 2. He doesn't make new handsaws but his restored vintage are top notch. There must be at least two typos here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wilkins Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 Backsaws not hack saws. He doesn't make new backless/full size handsaws just restores old ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Wright Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 Correct he does not make panel saws, he just makes back saws, frame saw blades and kerfing saw blades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 7 hours ago, Tony Wilkins said: Backsaws not hack saws. He doesn't make new backless/full size handsaws just restores old ones. Thanks for this. I was clearly not making it from hack to back last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted January 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 I ain't mad at him for making money, and it may well be that hand-making a small number of saws costs him that much based on labor, but what on God's green earth makes a 10" dovertail saw worth $285? Seriously ... what is so much better about these? I can see it in some of the other tools that are "new heirlooms" but a saw seems really basic and after a few sharpening sessions, any artistry that touches the wood is replaced by the users' own skill (or lack thereof.) Are the totes made of unicorn bones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 1 hour ago, Lee Bussy said: Are the totes made of unicorn bones? Not exactly... Little known fact. There is a vial of virgin unicorn tears included with each saw. This is used to sharpen the saws. A word of caution: A little goes a long way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilgaron Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 1 hour ago, Lee Bussy said: I ain't mad at him for making money, and it may well be that hand-making a small number of saws costs him that much based on labor, but what on God's green earth makes a 10" dovertail saw worth $285? Seriously ... what is so much better about these? I can see it in some of the other tools that are "new heirlooms" but a saw seems really basic and after a few sharpening sessions, any artistry that touches the wood is replaced by the users' own skill (or lack thereof.) Are the totes made of unicorn bones? It is the same reason that a handcrafted piece of furniture costs 10 times as much as the one from Walmart. I'd rather make a saw from parts for fun, but I'm sure by the time I was done I'd have sunk at least $285 into it if I charged myself my labor rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collinb Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 22 hours ago, Lee Bussy said: I found such a website here too ... so now I have that going. Never been to an estate sale. Is it just a garage sale-ish thing? I assume there are prices on things? And haggling is expected? Around here, anyway, estates are handled by one of two methods. The first is a "tag" sale. It's like a garage sale but an outside entity and attempts to get the best possible price for the seller. (This is also a method used by people downsizing and/or moving to Florida.) (Not to be confused with the yard sales on the East coast which are also called tag sales.) Sometimes tag sales have good prices. Other times not. It's a matter of learning who is handling it so you know where the most valuable shopping is at. The second method is the estate auction. Lots of those. Often boxes of goodies go cheap and even some new stuff goes at very low prices. For instance, last Spring I got a box for $17 to get the 12" blade for my SCMS. In the bottom of the box was a set of Incra rules -- 1 6" T and 1 6" corner. Plus a few other misc goodies. Auctions likewise give varying value to the buyer and seller. Some auctioneers don't get good crows and those are where the bargains are at. I've also found that shopping in rural areas is often higher than in the cities. Antique hounds head for the country and that raises auction prices. Still, they're resellers and require margin. So a high auction price is still often a bargain. The principle of watching the auctioneer is not a fixed one. Sometimes it's just the day. Tools, though, often bring out people who need them. (No auction that I've seen around here that features Snap-On sees low prices.) So one just needs to be a patient shopper. The bargains are there. Use craigslist and auctionzip.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted January 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 27 minutes ago, Gilgaron said: It is the same reason that a handcrafted piece of furniture costs 10 times as much as the one from Walmart. I'd rather make a saw from parts for fun, but I'm sure by the time I was done I'd have sunk at least $285 into it if I charged myself my labor rate. Yeah but when someone spends $15,000 for a table I think they have more money than sense. When someone spends $300 on a 10" saw what am I to think? That's semi-trolling of course, I'll cop to it, but it is a serious question. Are hand-made saws better in any way than let's say a L-N which is semi-mass produced but higher quality? I don;\'t know what's important in a saw is why I am asking. One answer here suggests that it's form follows function which is most important. If it's all about a cool tote, why not a hand-made tote made of unicorn horn and virgin tears for my new Irwin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 ==>Yeah but when someone spends $15,000 for a table I think they have more money than sense. When someone spends $300 on a 10" saw what am I to think? You ever own a $15K table? I know lot's of people who spend that on a piece of furniture --- and they are very happy... Ever use a BaT? I know lot's of people who spring for a $300 saw -- and they are very happy... I've owned and used side-by-side LN, Gramercy, BaT, Independence, G&S and one or two others... They all cut dovetails just fine... I can make them all work and get the same results with each (all marginal, I might add)... But I do appreciate the fit/finish of a BaT over an LN as I'm hacking my way though a cut... At one point, my dad told me there is something satisfying about using a high-quality tool... That's why he used Snap-on and not Rigid... And now that I own my own tools, I have to agree... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted January 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 18 minutes ago, hhh said: You ever own a $15K table? I know lot's of people who spend that on a piece of furniture --- and they are very happy... No sir. My wife would kill me. That's not gonna make me happy. I guess I was looking to define whether there were tangible reasons like "A5000 steel costs 18 times more and requires this machinery to cut" or if it was intangibles like Snap-On vs Rigid. Now I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 Labor costs money. Supply and demand drive prices. Diversification lends balance. All of these are common market concepts. Suppose LN can buy plate by the ton but BA by the quarter ton. Overhead matters. BA makes very few products. LN may be making its money on other items. (Reference VW mass air flow sensors being given away at a terrible loss in order to keep people driving the cars.) Selling planes and benches while saws sit idle keeps cash flow rolling. If all you sell is saws... What's the shop hour rate for your auto mechanic? 100? 150? In our automated plastic world we seem to forget that an extra hour of process is worth more than a few pennies. This is not to sway anyone to buy BA. I hope just to suggest some ideas that may lend context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 33 minutes ago, Lee Bussy said: intangibles like Snap-On vs Rigid. There is a distinct difference with handtools made my Snap-On and Ridgid/Husky/big box... On one hand, if you can't see the difference then there is no use trying to explain it. On the other, you asked a fair and open question. And for many reasons it's hard to answer/convince you that there is a difference in your Irwin vs the Bad Axe. There are too many anti-boutique threads here, and I don't want that to happen again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted January 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 1 hour ago, C Shaffer said: Labor costs money. Supply and demand drive prices. [...] an extra hour of process is worth more than a few pennies. This is not to sway anyone to buy BA. I hope just to suggest some ideas that may lend context. I get ya. Basically as long as people appreciate his work they are willing to pay for it. 1 hour ago, Llama said: There is a distinct difference with handtools made my Snap-On and Ridgid/Husky/big box... On one hand, if you can't see the difference then there is no use trying to explain it. On the other, you asked a fair and open question. And for many reasons it's hard to answer/convince you that there is a difference in your Irwin vs the Bad Axe. There are too many anti-boutique threads here, and I don't want that to happen again. I just want to make sure I understand the differences, which was basically the start of this thread. I learned (I think) that having a straight, sharp saw is more important than the name on it (for what I want.) I learned that differences after that deal with appreciating the craftsmanship, some cosmetic differences, comfort of use, durability, etc.. I was absolutely not looking to bash boutique, I just wanted to know if my dovetails would look different if made by an Irwin vs L-N, vs BA. I learned the answer, given proper maintenance, is no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 ==>^^^ The differences can be just fit/finish, but there can also be more to it then that... It's how the saw feels in our hands: the balance, the heft, the hang, shape of the handle, etc... For me, the BaT and Gramercy just feel better... And compared against LN, BaT cuts with more authority... It's a personal thing... Tactile... Both work, but one feels 'better' performing the operation... So yea, with practice, you can cut dovetails with just about any saw... Chris Schwarz did a blog post on cutting dovetails with a Panel Saw... But for many, working with hand tools is more than just the result... If it were just about results, then we'd all be cutting tailboards on a bandsaw (still the most accurate technique I know)... To Lama's point, threads like this are largely useless... You can't just snipe at an entire class tools that you've never used, seen, owned, whatever... Threads like this are largely self-justifications of preconceived purchasing decisions... Go to a show and try the tools for yourself side-by-side... Then you can return to tell us about how your Irwin felt just as good gang-cutting tailboards as a BaT... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted January 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 1 minute ago, hhh said: The differences can be just fit/finish, but there can also be more to it then that... It's how the saw feels in our hands: the balance, the heft, the hang, shape of the handle, etc... I can surely see the difference, but not being a hand-tool user I guess I'm missing where a lot of the nuances come in. I'm sure I will learn soon enough. 2 minutes ago, hhh said: To Lama's point, threads like this are largely useless... You can't just snipe at an entire class tools that you've never used, seen, owned, whatever... Threads like this are largely self-justifications of preconceived purchasing decisions... Go to a show and try the tools for yourself side-by-side... Then you can return to tell us about how your Irwin felt just as good gang-cutting tailboards as a BaT... I did try them at WWIA and like I said, there was not a $250 difference to me. This is absolutely NOT a thread for self-justifications, I'm just curious about why such a wide price range and I am learning from the answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 Lee, I think a lot of folks have the misconception that buying a well-made / expensive tool should automagically make them better at performing that tool's operation, but that just ain't so. Once you (or I) have developed our skill at, let's say, cutting dovetails until you "plateau" using an Irwin saw, it will be much easier to notice and appreciate the subtle differences in a BaT or other boutique saw. Plus, they're purty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 ==>there was not a $250 difference to me So it comes down to how one values $250... Some see it as next month's rent... Some see it as an investment to last a lifetime (or three) and amortize over the long haul... For many, it must be worth it --- or Mark wouldn't have a business model... This thread has run it's course, and I second closing it out... I'm out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted January 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 I'm just not sure what folks were getting upset about - if they are. Close it if you want, the answers I received helped me understand and I appreciate them. If I don't drive I won't appreciate the difference between a chevy and a maserati. That's where I am right now. I hope to be able to appreciate the difference some day. No reason to get in a huff. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 Just before it closes.... An "Irwin" saw is effective if you choose the right one. It's easy to reflect to much on what is crap or not. If you are determined to make something and focus on making something it all seems to fall into place. You might use something thought of by someone else as crap and like it or buy something amazing and find it does not fit into your workflow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 I don't think anyone is upset... If you are happy with the saw you currently own, there is no reason to change it. Certainly no amount of words on this thread will change your mind Get that Irwin into the shop, and make some dovetails! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmaichel Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 I still think you should just go to HD pick up a $20 Stanley hard point saw ans some dimensional pine, then go home and build a saw bench or two! There will always be use for a $20 hard point saw in some capacity. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted January 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 Definitely gonna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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