Kitchen remodel/countertop build

[drzaius]

Is the gapping at along the long grain joints, or the butt joints?

[Cliff]

5 hours ago, drzaius said:

Is the gapping at along the long grain joints, or the butt joints?

Long grain. Butt joints are doing great

[drzaius]

1 hour ago, Cliff said:

Long grain. Butt joints are doing great

Maybe I missed it, but do you know what the moisture content was & were all boards the same?

Here's a crazy idea that I have no idea is valid. When the butt joints are glued, epoxy soaks into the end grain & then cures. Then over the next few weeks the wood looses further moisture content & shrinks a little. Because the ends of the boards are impregnated with epoxy, they can't shrink as much, causing the long grain joints to open up.

Does this make sense? Like I said, just a theory.

[Cliff]

1 hour ago, drzaius said:

Maybe I missed it, but do you know what the moisture content was & were all boards the same?

Here's a crazy idea that I have no idea is valid. When the butt joints are glued, epoxy soaks into the end grain & then cures. Then over the next few weeks the wood looses further moisture content & shrinks a little. Because the ends of the boards are impregnated with epoxy, they can't shrink as much, causing the long grain joints to open up.

Does this make sense? Like I said, just a theory.

Hey I'll buy anything that takes blame off of me!

I don't know the MC. I don't have a meter yet. They had been in my shop since November. They were air dried.. my guess from the way they looked - several years. But they were not air dried properly I think. The twist was so severe in several that I ended up with 1" countertops out of 2 1/2" stock. Part of that was my fault, because I tried to flatten the boards when they were 12' and lost a lot of thickness there. I should have cut it up from the start and went with this current plan. This wood, in my opinion, has been very strange. 

[Brendon_t]

That is interesting that the ends are coming apart. What is the plan of attack now? 

I'm thinking some injected epoxy would keep it from opening up further but of course it will be a try it and see.

It does sound like the 2.5" thick boards were not dry in the center. You thinned them down so much then squared the end giving a fresh place for moisture to escape. In that case, I usually expect the wood to split rather than a glue line.   Is there a chance the edges werent actually matching 90°s or you clamped the glue out and starved the joint?

[Cliff]

That's exactly what I did @Brendon_t I wanted a real clean job, so I used a needle and tons of tape. It's already scraped clean and resanded to 320. I'm hoping it holds up. 

Honestly either thing you mentioned is possible, that I starved the joint or they weren't dead nuts 90. I don't have a picture, but one of the boards does look like it's starting to split some. I'll just have to see what happens. 

Either way, I'm now ready for finish on the smallest one. Or rather, ready to wet it down with mineral spirits and see how my sanding is. 

[Cliff]

7 hours ago, Mike. said:

Not to scare you, but here in the midwest air dried lumber will never get below 15% MC unless it is brought inside for a long period of time.   Our indoor conditions are much much different than outdoor conditions.  Most of us keep our houses at about 70 degrees F and the indoor humidity will fluctuate between 25% (winter) and 50% (summer).  I don't have a moisture table handy but that correlates to about 6-8% MC.   Those conditions simply never exist outdoors.  

There is this myth that "with modern HVAC systems wood movement is not as big a problem as it used to be."  Well back in the day when people lived in unconditioned houses, the indoor humidity would be more like the outdoor humidity and wood could be successfully air dried.   Modern HVAC systems create conditions that don't exist in nature, at least not around here.   It is never 70F with 30% RH outside.   But from November - April that is what I have inside my house.   Assuming your house is conditioned year round (mine is, I only open the windows if my kids are really gassy), it is harder to air dry wood to meet indoor conditions.   

You did the right thing my storing indoors since November.  Only time will tell that was enough.  That being said, I do think your failing glue line was due to a less than perfectly jointed edge (or a combination of both humidity swings and a not perfect edge). 

 

 

Yeah what you say is very correct, I may end up regretting the entire thing. I hope not. But at this point I'm so deep that I just have to try it and see what happens. 

 

Small non-pic based update, first coat of finish is on the smallest counter. The others still need some prep to be ready. It looks amazing. 

[Cliff]

Three coats down. Two more to go. I'm using Waterlox. They say to not sand until after the 3rd or 4th coat. So that is what I will do. 

You can see in one of the pics where I trimmed it by cutting through some biscuits. Oops. So that automatically became the back of the counter. Originally I wanted the other side to be the back because that has sap wood. So now I have a bit of sap, but not enough to make me want to set the project on fire or anything. 

 

[mat60]

The counter is looking great..You have put alot of work in it...I bet you will be glad when your done and its installed...What a big change it will make also Cliff.

[drzaius]

If you want to be extra clever you can mortise out those biscuits & glue in a matching piece of walnut. It works especially well on dark woods.

That Waterlox is pretty glossy, or is it still wet?

[Pwk5017]

9 minutes ago, drzaius said:

If you want to be extra clever you can mortise out those biscuits & glue in a matching piece of walnut. It works especially well on dark woods.

That Waterlox is pretty glossy, or is it still wet?

Probably wet; however, waterlox says it will lose some gloss overtime as it 100% cures. Atleast, that is what my cans have said.

It is a weird product though. Cliff, I dont know how you are doing it, but when I use it i flood the crap out of the surface on the first and second coats. Third coat is a typical brush on quantity. Fourth is when I sand, fifth is super thin wiped on. MAKE SURE YOU LET IT CURE BEFORE SANDING. This has to be the slowest drying finish on the market. Also, dont sand and immediately apply the final coat. Sand, wait a few hours/a day and then apply the coat. Sanding it can open up uncured portions of the finish and it will wrinkle on you. You have been through hell on this one, I feel your pain. Rarely does a counter/island project go 100% smoothly. Last night I jacked up a 3x7 walnut island when it went into the drum sander without proper support and had the rear drum gouge it for 5-6". Really makes you want to give up on woodworking when projects go tragically wrong like some things in this journal. 

[Cliff]

56 minutes ago, drzaius said:

If you want to be extra clever you can mortise out those biscuits & glue in a matching piece of walnut. It works especially well on dark woods.

That Waterlox is pretty glossy, or is it still wet?

Yup still wet. It's a medium gloss.

 

31 minutes ago, Pwk5017 said:

Probably wet; however, waterlox says it will lose some gloss overtime as it 100% cures. Atleast, that is what my cans have said.

It is a weird product though. Cliff, I dont know how you are doing it, but when I use it i flood the crap out of the surface on the first and second coats. Third coat is a typical brush on quantity. Fourth is when I sand, fifth is super thin wiped on. MAKE SURE YOU LET IT CURE BEFORE SANDING. This has to be the slowest drying finish on the market. Also, dont sand and immediately apply the final coat. Sand, wait a few hours/a day and then apply the coat. Sanding it can open up uncured portions of the finish and it will wrinkle on you. You have been through hell on this one, I feel your pain. Rarely does a counter/island project go 100% smoothly. Last night I jacked up a 3x7 walnut island when it went into the drum sander without proper support and had the rear drum gouge it for 5-6". Really makes you want to give up on woodworking when projects go tragically wrong like some things in this journal. 

So far I've been following the guidelines on their website. They basically said that because it's tung oil, it will absorb, so flood it on for those first couple of coats. But yeah now I can use about 3 table spoons for the entire counter. If that.

They said you can sand it, but I can't remember if they said when. By cure you mean, the full 30-90 day cure time? I was hoping to sand it after waiting 24 hours. I've watched some videos by AskWoodman on youtube where he uses waterlox, and he does it completely different from how they said to on their site. They said.. 3-5 coats, 24 hours in between every one, sanding after 3rd. AskWoodman basically would put 2-3 coats on in one day, and sand on day 2.

Oh man. That sucks, same thing happened on one of my big counter boards in the planer. However, it was only the last 1" of the board so I cut it off. Are you going to be able to recover the island?

[Pwk5017]

48 minutes ago, Cliff said:

Yup still wet. It's a medium gloss.

 

So far I've been following the guidelines on their website. They basically said that because it's tung oil, it will absorb, so flood it on for those first couple of coats. But yeah now I can use about 3 table spoons for the entire counter. If that.

They said you can sand it, but I can't remember if they said when. By cure you mean, the full 30-90 day cure time? I was hoping to sand it after waiting 24 hours. I've watched some videos by AskWoodman on youtube where he uses waterlox, and he does it completely different from how they said to on their site. They said.. 3-5 coats, 24 hours in between every one, sanding after 3rd. AskWoodman basically would put 2-3 coats on in one day, and sand on day 2.

Oh man. That sucks, same thing happened on one of my big counter boards in the planer. However, it was only the last 1" of the board so I cut it off. Are you going to be able to recover the island?

Hmm I wonder how Woodman does that. It is definitely tacky for 6-12 hours. What I meant is I sand it with 320/400 and then i wait 12-24 hours before applying the final wiped on coat. When you sand it, you might uncover areas of uncured finish that were entrapped by cured finish. Does that make any sense? Anyways, I dont sand and then immediately apply my last coat. This stuff is the most PITA product ive ever dealt with. I certainly hope it's as badass as they advertise, because it wouldnt be worth it otherwise. It smells so bad, and I run fans for hours with windows open. On the projects I need to seal this weekend, I am leaving them in the garage to cure. 

 

Umm I went ballistic and thought the thing was ruined, which it kind of is. I have a bunch of 1/16-1/8" gouges over that 5-6" length. It doesnt help that this is for an interior designer that I work with on and off and the price tag was pretty high--i.e. it better be effing perfect. So, I could have sanded 1/16-1/8" off the top and hope i did it perfect unlike the 1st attempt, or scrap it. Thankfully, I have a second walnut island in the queue that is 5" shorter than this length and 5" wider. After I calmed down, I decided it was best to lop off the damaged portion as best i could, probably leaving me with a last inch or so that needs to be blended. Glue on another board to make it 41" wide and bob's your uncle. Really got lucky on having two extremely similar projects back to back like this. I almost had to eat 5 hours of labor and $250 in walnut. 

[Cliff]

53 minutes ago, Pwk5017 said:

Hmm I wonder how Woodman does that. It is definitely tacky for 6-12 hours. What I meant is I sand it with 320/400 and then i wait 12-24 hours before applying the final wiped on coat. When you sand it, you might uncover areas of uncured finish that were entrapped by cured finish. Does that make any sense? Anyways, I dont sand and then immediately apply my last coat. This stuff is the most PITA product ive ever dealt with. I certainly hope it's as badass as they advertise, because it wouldnt be worth it otherwise. It smells so bad, and I run fans for hours with windows open. On the projects I need to seal this weekend, I am leaving them in the garage to cure. 

 

Umm I went ballistic and thought the thing was ruined, which it kind of is. I have a bunch of 1/16-1/8" gouges over that 5-6" length. It doesnt help that this is for an interior designer that I work with on and off and the price tag was pretty high--i.e. it better be effing perfect. So, I could have sanded 1/16-1/8" off the top and hope i did it perfect unlike the 1st attempt, or scrap it. Thankfully, I have a second walnut island in the queue that is 5" shorter than this length and 5" wider. After I calmed down, I decided it was best to lop off the damaged portion as best i could, probably leaving me with a last inch or so that needs to be blended. Glue on another board to make it 41" wide and bob's your uncle. Really got lucky on having two extremely similar projects back to back like this. I almost had to eat 5 hours of labor and $250 in walnut. 

Ahh got ya. It's funny because Woodman calls it a foolproof finish. He said if you are going to take a person with no finishing knowledge and put them to work, this is what you give them. And I was thinking, "sweet, I'm not that bad but I need a handicap."

I'm doing this in my basement. First night my wife and I had massive headaches. I think it was because it was so thick. Next two nights has been way more manageable. I have cross ventilation with a window on each side of the basement open and a fan in the middle pointing to the workpiece and a window.

Wow you are lucky with your project queue. Glad that is going to work out for ya. Hate to see anyone get screwed doing this. This is one part of the hobby I'm quickly becoming an expert in, the whole, "Oh my god, did that just happen? WTF am I going to do now?!"

[trialbyfire]

"Oh my god, did that just happen? WTF am I going to do now?!"

My buddy's Dad is a woodworker and when I first started getting into this hobby my buddy was over and after I made a mistake he told me his Dad used to tell him " it's not about not making mistakes, is about how well you can hide or fix them." I think of that every time I make an error somewhere and it usually helps me think of the fix. Obviously not making the mistake in the first place is better but they do happen and we do need to know how to fix them.

[drzaius]

1 hour ago, trialbyfire said:

My buddy's Dad is a woodworker and when I first started getting into this hobby my buddy was over and after I made a mistake he told me his Dad used to tell him " it's not about not making mistakes, is about how well you can hide or fix them." I think of that every time I make an error somewhere and it usually helps me think of the fix. Obviously not making the mistake in the first place is better but they do happen and we do need to know how to fix them.

When I've finished a project, I get almost as much satisfaction from how well I fixed my screwups as from the project itself. 

[Cliff]

There are "screw-ups" then "time to set fire to this!"

[shaneymack]

There are "screw-ups" then "time to set fire to this!"

Setting fire to a project that has gone awry can be quite satisfying.

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[shaneymack]

 

8 minutes ago, Iceballs Burnham said:

I thought you preferred project death by bandsaw, Prof.?

 

 

You are correct sir.

 

Step one: bandsaw project in half

 

Step two: light er up!

 

Step three: flip the bird to woodstove and walk away.

 

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All jokes aside, Cliff, im not poking fun at your project or calling it burn worthy. Your doing a great job and have recovered well with some of the issues that have come up. Keep on truckin son !

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[Cliff]

5 hours ago, shaneymack said:

 

 

You are correct sir.

 

Step one: bandsaw project in half

 

Step two: light er up!

 

Step three: flip the bird to woodstove and walk away.

 

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

All jokes aside, Cliff, im not poking fun at your project or calling it burn worthy. Your doing a great job and have recovered well with some of the issues that have come up. Keep on truckin son !

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Thanks! I'm really focusing on fixing my errors on this project. Previous ones I just tossed it aside. It's a good feeling.

[Cliff]

When the power goes out as you are putting finish on...

 

[SawDustB]

When the power goes out as you are putting finish on...

 

You're just not getting any breaks on this project, are you?

[drzaius]

1 hour ago, SawDustB said:

You're just not getting any breaks on this project, are you?

Bet it's building him lots of character though.

[Cliff]

My day was brightened because after the storm a tree service dude came and cut the crap out of a birch that I hate. He advised me he has a 20' walnut log that is 18" wide if I want it. Plus a couple of cherry trees maybe. Turns out he also supplies the very sawmill I buy my wood from. 

Day better.

[JosephThomas]

42 minutes ago, Cliff said:

My day was brightened because after the storm a tree service dude came and cut the crap out of a birch that I hate. He advised me he has a 20' walnut log that is 18" wide if I want it. Plus a couple of cherry trees maybe. Turns out he also supplies the very sawmill I buy my wood from. 

Day better.

Buy that guy a beverage!