Fenced in

[bleedinblue]

3 hours ago, collinb said:

What model? I'll look it up

There is this one

http://columbus.craigslist.org/tls/5552914641.html

If I replace those stamped wings with something else and/or build it into a table ...

It's more modern. 

Still ... I can't get past that it is really the same functional design as mine. Is that not so?

I have that saw and will be selling it soon.  The fence is good.  Alignment needs rechecked, I have been getting some burning and I think it's slightly off.  Come to MO and I'd sell it to you for $150 just because you need it.

I'm going to post it on the local CL for $250, maybe $300, judging by the local market.  $150 for you though Collin.

[Chestnut]

[Rex Edgar]

2 hours ago, AceHoleInOne said:

I have a Delta Contractor saw. The fence is shit, but hey, it works just fine. The issue becomes, as you exit the cut and you're applying side pressure to the fence. The fence will deflect juuuust a little bit.  It takes VERY LITTLE TIME after you lock the fence into position, to drop down a few magnets.. 

If I'm ripping long boards, I will clamp a caul and WOZZER, THIS TAKES A WHOLE FEW SECONDS (I usually spend way too much of my shop time looking for pencils and tape measures than to worry how long it takes to steady my fence).

 

-Ace-  

I'm with you. Way too much time lost looking for basic stuff. I have even purchased another 'lost' item only to find it after the purchase.....

[Andy Wright]

8 hours ago, Andy Wright said:

I don't have an Accusquare fence, but looking at pictures of the fence makes me wonder where the flex is?

One option is to modify the fence with a "better" clamp to go against the fence. you can make it out of angle iron with a drill and a hacksaw. Make it wider than the original and add a second screw clamp to the right of center that you can engage when you are ripping longer stock

 

 

8 hours ago, collinb said:

The flex happens as you approach the far end, on the back side.

back to the original question of trying to find a way to fix your fence...

I was thinking about your response, and even though you see deflection near the end of the fence, the flex is most likely coming from the locking mechanism on the fence. Extruded aluminum is very stiff so I doubt that it is the culprit.

You may be able to fix the problem by beefing up the front locking mechanism. It only locks in the middle, it seems like it would be susceptible to movement. Try adding a couple of C-clamps to either side of your locking knob and see if the fence is more solid. If so then your answer could be as simple as adding a second clamping knob to use when you need the fence to be locked extra tight.

Another solution along the lines of your first thought is to add a metal L-bracket to the right side of the fence that will ride right on top of the back rail. When you need to lock the fence in place you can use a C-Clamp to lock the L bracket down to the back rail. I used that set up to stabilize an aftermarket fence that I had years ago on a Craftsman bandsaw. I would just use it without a C-clamp a lot of the time but if I needed to resaw I would get out a C clamp to lock down the back of the fence to make it solid.

[collinb]

Just an fyi. The tuning on the saw now has it running with a quiet hum and a wisp of air.

Still waiting for an answer to the assertion that the unit is inherently dangerous.

https://vimeo.com/165040232

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

[Brendon_t]

2 minutes ago, collinb said:

Just an fyi. The tuning on the saw now has it running with a quiet hum and a wisp of air.

Still waiting for an answer to the assertion that the unit is inherently dangerous.

https://vimeo.com/165040232

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

Your wanting to know why a table saw is inherently dangerous..?  You see that sharp shinning thing.. that's why. 

[collinb]

Just an fyi. The tuning on the saw now has it running with a quiet hum and a wisp of air.

Still waiting for an answer to the assertion that the unit is inherently dangerous.

https://vimeo.com/165040232

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

Your wanting to know why a table saw is inherently dangerous..?  You see that sharp shinning thing.. that's why. 

You missed the question. The assertion was made that this model is inherently dangerous.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

[Chestnut]

1 hour ago, collinb said:

You missed the question. The assertion was made that this model is inherently dangerous.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

Lack of riving knife and guard system as well as a fence that bends and could push wood back into the blade to cause kickback. If there is noticeable arbor run out it could create more problems.

[Janello]

Yeah, the fact that the fence doesn't lock down and never actually did, and it was sold in an age when riving knives were considered 2 chineese guys fighting in a kitchen, and the base is bolted together like a cheap piece of lawn furniture make this highly avoidable equipment. 

You can disagree with me, but you'd be putting yourself in harms way by doing so.

[Tpt life]

A fence that won't lock says it all to me. You can rig a lock maybe, but I would hate dialing in tight tolerances and re-rigging each time. A sled would not bother me and a fence can be replaced. It just depends on your work flow. Tile guys will cut 1/4" underlayment on a saw with no fence. I would not build furniture that way. You can say a saw is not in the budget, but that is the proof of a lack of patience. Budgets grow with time spent saving, your priorities dictate that. This is just my philosophy. I have no right to push it on others. 

[collinb]

14 hours ago, Janello said:

Yeah, the fact that the fence doesn't lock down and never actually did, and it was sold in an age when riving knives were considered 2 chineese guys fighting in a kitchen, and the base is bolted together like a cheap piece of lawn furniture make this highly avoidable equipment. 

You can disagree with me, but you'd be putting yourself in harms way by doing so.

Now you're getting specific instead of being merely offensive. That's moving toward productivity in conversation.

Fences can be changed.

I've mentioned an am looking into building it into a table. That would seem important for all contractor saws.  At this point I have it mounted on a wheeled base, bolted down. Did that early on. The weaknesses of those stamped steel legs was obvious from the beginning so steps have been taken as knowledge and understanding grew.

14 hours ago, C Shaffer said:

A fence that won't lock says it all to me. You can rig a lock maybe, but I would hate dialing in tight tolerances and re-rigging each time. A sled would not bother me and a fence can be replaced. It just depends on your work flow. Tile guys will cut 1/4" underlayment on a saw with no fence. I would not build furniture that way. You can say a saw is not in the budget, but that is the proof of a lack of patience. Budgets grow with time spent saving, your priorities dictate that. This is just my philosophy. I have no right to push it on others. 

I have this magnetic clamp thingie that came with an old dial indicator. Just turn the knob and it holds like a rock.  But that's only useful for narrow pieces. It's not viable for wider sheet cutting where the problem showed itself.

The fence does lock down tight -- at the front knob side.  But because it does not lock at the back it will move slightly. I described it as torquing. It's not much -- may 1/32". But it's enough to notice when cutting a large sheet and it is certainly enough to cause kickback.  Per our conversation fences can be replaced.

**

I've only had one time where the lack of riving knive was an issue.  This also had to do with large sheets and the outside turned in toward the blade.  Some ugly burning inside there.   At least with the saw having the power it does, the blade didn't catch and throw the wood but kept cutting.  I was more concerned about a fire in my sawdust than kickback in that instance.  But a thick piece of material would be a different case. I am looking into adding one. 

(That said, there is one on the blade guard that moves with blade tilt, which I don't do very often.  But it's not a suitably rigid piece of metal. It flexes when bumped as it's just a piece of stamped steel like the stand. That can be as dangerous as not having one.  We have a machine shop were I work and I'm going to see about designing one for this saw.  So far I've not found an add-in for it.)

**

Please understand that I *do* listen to the advice given.  I may not apply it as you might (eg. time spent + tune-ups + add-ons like a contractor saw cabinet) but I do listen. Hopefully the comments I just iterated express that sentiment.  Still, given the tone recently, I think I'll limit my posts to projects completed instead of questions and things being learned along the way. The remainder of what I need can be found with google.

[bleedinblue]

Seems to me like everyone is just concerned about your fingers.  You mention two close calls already, and describe an unsafe saw.  In an environment like this, I think many here would feel somewhat responsible if they didn't say anything and you end up losing body parts.

This hobby is not only expensive, it's really no-joke-dangerous.  The dangers are only mitigated by the user and by quality, well tuned machines.

At this point if you report back that you lost half a hand, many here will empathize with you, but will also be saying "I told you so."

[drzaius]

57 minutes ago, collinb said:

 

I've only had one time where the lack of riving knive was an issue. 

Really? I used table saws with no riving knifes for decades. Then I got one with a riving knife. Just about every time I make a rip cut I can see how much better & safer the saw works with a riving knife. I think my saw's riving knife is a far more important safety feature than it's weiner sensing technology. And it helps to make better cuts too.

Don't underestimate the riving knife.

[Robby W]

Hi, Colin - I have a pre-Delta Rockwell contractor's saw. It has a decent amount of cast iron in it, but came with the "Jet" fence and stamped wings, the deficiencies of both becoming apparent over time. I made five changes to the that really changed it and the way I work.

First, I installed a Biesemeyer fence. This was back in the days when the Biesemeyer was the only game in town and I love that fence. I can depend on it to be accurate and not move. Second, I added an Accumiter miter gauge. No more worries about square or angles. Third, I added and always use a Shark splitter. I haven't had a kickback since. Forth, I made some wood tables to replace the stamped steel, so everything is flat and level. Finally, I replaced the belt and pullers with a link belt and machined pulleys, which really smoothed out the saw. No more motor bounce. All of these changes changed the way I use my saw. It is quick to set, holds settings and is repeatable.

If you are going to keep your saw, I would replace the fence with a good one. Yes, I would recommend the Biesemeyer. Replace the trunnion bolts in your saw with grade five bolts and line it up properly. Use Loctite so they don't come loose. Install a good splitter and use it.

All of this was done back when your choices were Craftsman (back when it was really junk), a Unisaw or other commercial grade saw (and they cost as much as a car back then). Would I do it again? No. You can get a good saw for the cost of the add-ons.

I hope you find this constructive and useful.

 

 

 

[collinb]

15 hours ago, C Shaffer said:

You can say a saw is not in the budget, but that is the proof of a lack of patience. Budgets grow with time spent saving, your priorities dictate that. This is just my philosophy. I have no right to push it on others. 

It has been a practice in patience this Spring to tune things up.  (It is said that I spend too much time on my equipment. They're entitled to his opinion. He says that I should go out and get better-safe-more-modern equipment and do things right.  Understood. )

I guess what I'm trying to do is get the most out of my old equipment.  Sure it has taken me time to do.  I suspect everyone who works with their equipment is intimate with it.  ( If I may quote a favorite movie here: "... that the commander does not know every bolt, every weld on his ship?")  My time spent in tuning things up this Spring has been part of the learning experience that I was not able to learn for the past 2 years because I had no starting point, no foundation for learning.  It was all guessing. So I came here.

3 minutes ago, drzaius said:

Really? I used table saws with no riving knifes for decades. Then I got one with a riving knife. Just about every time I make a rip cut I can see how much better & safer the saw works with a riving knife. I think my saw's riving knife is a far more important safety feature than it's wiener sensing technology. And it helps to make better cuts too.

Don't underestimate the riving knife.

I should have said something about them being obviously attributable to the lack of riving. I'm looking at the microjig solution since I so rarely tilt the blade. The BORK solution seems to be under-engineered.  It has potential but I just don't like the look of it. The Shark looks like the *best* solution but there I'm at about 1/4 the cost of a new saw. I'd be better of getting the microjig and saving for the right solution, imnsho. (A replacement fence I can take with me to new equipment, but not this.)

**

I will be pleased to see that the combination of a better fence and riving provide more precision.  And though these are extra costs they're still cheaper than a new saw. With it humming along smoothly right now I'm in no real hurry.  Patience.

[..Kev]

1 hour ago, Lester Burnham said:

Word. That's why I'm sticking with construction lumber projects. I'm saving up for proper equipment before I go hacking away at quality materials. (planer and jointer specifically)

Construction lumber can/will react just like "quality" material!

[Janello]

Collin, just for the record... I don't mean to come across as negitive or combative...I'm a plumber at heart with some rough edges, and I always had your fingers being in tact in mind with all my comments. I just may not say things as eloquently as some here, but don't want to see you or anyone else here learning their way around power equipment get hurt. I'd rather be an ass and save you a finger than be silent.

That said. can you make this saw safe? Yes, you likely can. But it has to be done in a manner that works well, and not with jerry rig fixes that only solve half the problem, and to me this saw just isn't worth it. If you read back through every post here the only solutions offered besides getting a new saw mention a jerry rig of some type...even your initial post asked in a round about way, how can I jerry rig this thing. This is just not the type of tool to take short cuts and risks with. Jerry rig an orbital sander...not this.

Also, a riving knife is extremely important. I've had a chunk of wood come back at me on a similar saw to yours in the past. It left behind a raised welt on my abdomen that initially I thought had blown my spleen out my backside...It's no joke. And it happened to be...construction lumber. The saw knows no difference.

 

[collinb]

1 hour ago, Janello said:

Collin, just for the record... I don't mean to come across as negitive or combative...I'm a plumber at heart with some rough edges, and I always had your fingers being in tact in mind with all my comments. I just may not say things as eloquently as some here, but don't want to see you or anyone else here learning their way around power equipment get hurt. I'd rather be an ass and save you a finger than be silent.

That said. can you make this saw safe? Yes, you likely can. But it has to be done in a manner that works well, and not with jerry rig fixes that only solve half the problem, and to me this saw just isn't worth it. If you read back through every post here the only solutions offered besides getting a new saw mention a jerry rig of some type...even your initial post asked in a round about way, how can I jerry rig this thing. This is just not the type of tool to take short cuts and risks with. Jerry rig an orbital sander...not this.

Also, a riving knife is extremely important. I've had a chunk of wood come back at me on a similar saw to yours in the past. It left behind a raised welt on my abdomen that initially I thought had blown my spleen out my backside...It's no joke. And it happened to be...construction lumber. The saw knows no difference.

 

We're really not that far apart and your motivations are understood.

What I'll probably do is add a splitter and look toward another saw next year. In the mean time I can upgrade the fence and take it with me.

I'm more into adaptation than jerry rigging.  Third party replacement fences are adaptations.  Third party splitters are also adaptations.  Jigs are adaptations.  If I could add a riving knive (without :-)  using twine) in a safe and secure manner I would.  But it appears that it may not be possible. 

(If there were time I would explore welding bosses to the cast iron in the saw so that an existing riving knife from some other saw might be safely mounted.  But welding is not something in my skill set and I'm not certain people I know could do it *properly* for me. Such an adaptation would be safe and would seriously upgrade the saw. Given future plans it is also probably not worth the effort.)

Let's go back to the beginning:  I was told that this saw should be abandoned because of what it would require of me in terms of time and expense. From the beginning.  Of course the saw could be tuned up inexpensively.  Cost me $30 for the steel pulleys and Pal.  Spent about the same last year on the link belt.  So my $150 saw is now up to just a little over $200 in cost. 

My idea for fixing the fence was to fix the inadequacy by replacing what wasn't doing its job.  It's an approach that many take. If you've ever put up fence and driven steel posts, much of the time it's with a home-made device.  Why go to the store and pay retail for a new one when you can weld closed the end of a steel pipe, adding re-bar handles, and get the job done just as well.  And it takes effectively less time because you don't have to save up for or take time off for a trip to Tractor Supply.  You might think of it as jerry-rigging. I think of it as upgrading a bad or inadequate part that can be made better & proper. (Not the best analogy but I trust the point is clear -- adaptation can be done effectively and safely.)

Now to the current dilemma:  How much for a newer contractor saw that won't require the ongoing time investment?  Roughly $500 right now for the Craftsman (that looks identical to the Rigid & Grizzly).  I could save up for a year and wait for the next sale and watch for the next used local bargain. Probably will.  But in the mean time there's wood to cut.  I want to do that efficiently and safely.  That means a new fence and splitter.  The fence can stay for the next saw. The splitter can go as a value-add with the current saw.

[wtnhighlander]

Its all fun and games, until somebody cuts the twine.

[Brendon_t]

13 hours ago, drzaius said:

is a far more important safety feature than it's weiner sensing technology. 

Don't let your wiener hear you say that...

[drzaius]

12 hours ago, Brendon_t said:

Don't let your wiener hear you say that...

I keep him well put away around the power tools.

[Patrick]

Collin, I'm in a somewhat similar situation.  I enjoy tinkering with equipment and "penny saved, penny earned" speaks to me.  So maybe my decision process will resonate with you.

I have upgraded to some nice equipment in my hobby shop but the TS hasn't been replaced yet-  1.5hp hybrid saw from the 1960s with a poor fence, power, and the cuts require jointer work.  

A new fence system is necessary for rip cuts. Used, that's  $300 minimum but I'd likely spend more for anything worth swapping out on a new saw.  I need a riving knife, and since I work with hard woods the 50 yr old  1.5 hp is wanting.  

I do have a few 2 & 3 hp 220 motors sitting around but the motor mounts would need reconfigured. Add the cost of the riving knife, time and materials replacing my stamped iron wings, I'm looking at dumping $500 into a TS that won't be worth $500, and it won't cut as well as a new TS.  That's a bad investment.

I noticed the picture of your table saw.   It's not going to fetch $300 in central OH as it  is on CL without you adding a $400 fence system.  I say this as someone that's lived in central and southern OH for years and watch their local CL for table saws like an addiction (living in Louisville now).

The safety issues have already been addressed so I'm just speaking to the investment- it's a bad one.   

Deal with what you have to work with for now until you're read to buy a new TS the fence on you're new saw will likely be better than anything you'll pick up for under $300.    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Collin, I'm in a somewhat similar situation.  I enjoy tinkering with equipment and "penny saved, penny earned" speaks to me.  So maybe my decision process will resonate with you.

I have upgraded to some nice equipment in my hobby shop but the TS hasn't been replaced yet-  1.5hp hybrid saw from the 1960s with a poor fence, power, and the cuts require jointer work.  

A new fence system is necessary for rip cuts. Used, that's  $300 minimum but I'd likely spend more for anything worth swapping out on a new saw.  I need a riving knife, and since I work with hard woods the 50 yr old  1.5 hp is wanting.  

I do have a few 2 & 3 hp 220 motors sitting around but the motor mounts would need reconfigured. Add the cost of the riving knife, time and materials replacing my stamped iron wings, I'm looking at dumping $500 into a TS that won't be worth $500, and it won't cut as well as a new TS.  That's a bad investment.    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rex Edgar]

Based upon some of your posts, Collin, you seem to be someone who does not take himself too seriously. That is a quality I find attractive in other people. Way too many tight asses in the world. That being said, I don't want to seem to be piling on. Woodworkers are passionate about what they do. They have invested many years and many dollars in their hobby. I was first exposed to woodworking in a shop class in elementary school. Our education system should go back to something like that, but that is for another post. I was able to build a few small projects and I learned a few things that I still use. Later on in junior high there was another class and a few small projects again. Fast forward to the first marriage and a fixer upper house. The wife said "you can do that" and away we went. Anyway what I am trying to get at is that it takes many years and dollars to get the necessary skills and practices to get good results. Some people are truly gifted and others do the best they can. You have to "know your limitations", as Dirty Harry might say. I am always fighting with my lack of patience' handling a glue up too soon, trying to put all the finish (stain or varnish) on in one coat etc. 

You mention in one of your posts that you wil restrict your posts to projects completed. What is left unsaid is that you feel as though people are 'piling on'. You also state that in addition to some injuries, you are concerned that your present saw is burning wood so much that you are concerned with the sawdust catching fire. How can you concentrate on cutting a straight line if you are concerned about flying wood shrapnel or burning your work shop down? 

I think what people on this board are trying to do is save you some steps in the process of learning. Using things that they have experienced to school you, If you will. Any experience with children will teach the adult that you can only save someone so much pain and aggravation by trying to teach them from your experiences. The most retained lessons are those that cost us physical, emotional or financial pain. You may tell someone 'the stove is hot', but they will at some point prove it to themselves.

You have taken up a hobby that will produce both physical and financial pain, probably emotional as well. If you are wary of your equipment/tools, there is no way to get better. If you surf YOUTUBE, there are people who build beautiful projects and they swear they only use a butter knife to do so. More power to them! People are also attempting to stop you from 'throwing good money after bad'. Can't always be done, "financial pain".

Anyhow, I didn't mean to rant, just trying to make a point. Get the best equipment that you can afford! You have picked a hobby that will hurt you if you try to do it on the cheap, both in results and possible physical injury. Good luck, Collin and if you have read this far thank you, I feel better anyway....................