Janello Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 Shane's box build thread got me thinking about this. I have yet to cut DT's by hand and it's something I want to try sooner than later. I was impressed with David Barrons method and was wondering if anyone endorsed his tools and methods or if he is catering more to the inept crowd? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan.mullock.3 Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 Try it and see,also try different tools and methods, pick what works for you and discard rest! Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h3nry Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 Shannon did a review of this recently http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/rww201-barron-dovetail-guides/ He said it's not for him, but it seems he was more impressed than he thought he would be to start with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janello Posted June 12, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 Let me try it this way. If Hulk were to cut dovetails and Batman was helping, would they do it the David Barron way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephThomas Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 1 hour ago, Janello said: Let me try it this way. If Hulk were to cut dovetails and Batman was helping, would they do it the David Barron way? Lol, no idea what that means, but it made me laugh to picture it. I'm guessing they'd use pine so that nothing nice was lost when he destroyed everything in frustration. Shannon's review, as posted above, which I think most will agree with, is that they don't really work good as "training wheels" because they don't let you figure out the right body mechanics to make cuts correctly. The magnets just hold it in line regardless of how much you suck at keeping it there. However, he did say they'd work well for someone who is going to remain a mostly-power-tool-user, but wants to have these around for the occasional dovetail, but would do them so infrequently that their handsaw skills would be deteriorated in between projects that required it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 And John, one thing to keep in mind as well, it seems like its preferable to use a japanese saw with those guides. The spine of the western backsaws bottom out on the guide. Thats the thing that stood out in my mind and made me uninterested. Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 I think it's akin to a fence on a jointer plane. Put in your time, take your lumps, summon your inner square and learn to do it the real way. It just takes some practice. Do the 30 dovetails in 30 days thing and I promise you'll be proficient if you don't have it mastered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 I like to use the bandsaw and jig rather than his magnet device but, Eric is correct, practice makes perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 It looks like it works fine, and is a foolproof method, but it makes me uncomfortable in several ways. A guide is a good idea for the Japanese saw, at least to start with when getting used to it if you aren't going to practice, since there is little steering one in the cut like a Western saw. I prefer a backsaw. If you do put money in a nice Japanese dovetail saw, don't pop anything off with it. In experienced hands, like his, it's okay, but I don't like it as a demonstration to hew woodworkers. If you can stop close enough to the finish to do that, just saw it all the way off. That's the least amount of skill required. I never liked marking anything where you need to "leave the line" with a marking knife. I use a pencil, but then you might know about my pencils, but you probably don't really. I always feel like I'm going to fall in the hole left from a marking knife when it's required to leave the line. When pairing with a chisel, I like to just use hand pressure. If you need to use a mallet, you've probably left too much to pare off, and in any case, the chisel needs to be sharp enough to scare the wood out of the way in front of the edge. Those chisels look like they're probably A2, and that's about as sharp as you can get them. Another reason I like 01. If you're going to use a saw for the waste, cut to the line, and only call on the parer where it's needed. You can't learn to cut to a line without starting to cut to the line at some point. It is harder for me to cut to a scribed line than a pencil line. Reluctance seems to be the hardest thing for new woodworkers to overcome in so many parts of it. I like chopping out the waste anyway, which doesn't take long with a sharp chisel, and no worry about sawing to the line, or how much waste to leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephThomas Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 On this note, do any of you guys like using the tapered dovetail saws? Or is that a gimmicky thing for a dovetail saw? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldwood Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 I have the Veritas version and I like it. It is a confidence builder and reinforces the process. I think it was helpful to me, as now I can do a pretty good dovetail without the assistance, although I would see no problem in using it all the time. I think the veritas one is a bit cheaper than what Shannon used. Good luck with whatever you chose. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 I've never had a tapered one in my hand, unless it was just tapered from improper sharpening before I got it. All mine are old, cheap ones. I never look at the saw anyway. I'm looking at the line I want to cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mds2 Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 I do a lot of hand cut dovetails and I do not use a guide. When I first taught myself I tried several methods. Doing it "freehand" works best for me. All you need to do is practice. One thing I love for dovetailing is "spy-ral" coping saw blades. They cut in any direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortan D Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 That Barrons magnetic dovetail guide won't work with the average western-style dovetail saw. I was also curious about those guides and then found this video: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janello Posted June 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 Thanks guys, all great information. Hulk and Batman really helped! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 Here's the way to do it: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Z. Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 On June 12, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Janello said: Let me try it this way. If Hulk were to cut dovetails and Batman was helping, would they do it the David Barron way? No. He would do it Shannon's way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 John, I cut my first while building Marc's Krenov Inspired Display stand using Marc's instructions and I was tickled s#*tless with the outcome. It included both half blind and thru dt's. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 No. He would do it Shannon's way. Not a chance. Hulk smash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 I heard a great quote the other day that I think fits this thread perfectly... "In this age, which believes there is a shortcut to everything, the greatest lesson to be learned is that the most difficult way is, in the long-run, the easiest." - Henry Miller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronn W Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Did Henry Miller work for the government? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekcohen Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Can David's guide help with half-blind dovetails? Shannon's review is excellent. Note that he shows that you need a special saw when using the guide (a d-e-e-p plate). One still needs to transfer marks, and that is where the skill lies. Mastering dovetail cutting is nothing more than sawing to lines. The clearer the lines are seen, the easier it is the saw accurately. It was because of my ageing eyes that I developed the use of blue tape to mark out, especially to transfer marks from the tail to the pin board. The tape does not do the sawing for you. It is not a guide. It is just a mark. But it really helps. Half Blind Dovetails with Blue Tape Through Dovetails These dovetails were done without a guide ... (link to the near conclusion of this build: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TopOfTheWorldToYou.html Regards from Perth Derek 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryMcK Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 You can still use it for half blinds just tilting the saw at 45 to establish the line removing the guide when you get so far down. However the slight kerf of the saw will damage the face of the guide as you have the have the saw at an angle so the teeth now touch the guide face. The guide looks very similar in operation to the Veritas dovetail guide but without the Veritas's clamps. On that you need to use a non back saw to get around the depth problem with regular back saws. Veritas say "Rare earth magnets embedded in the anodised aluminum guide and covered with a layer of low friction UHMW plastic keep the saw perfectly aligned as you cut". In actual fact the thickness of the plastic takes the kerf into consideration and moves the saw over by that tiny amount. This stops the teeth from touching the aluminium except when doing half blinds when it chews up both the aluminium and plastic! C'est la vie. So their own dovetail saw intended for the use with the guides or a Japanese Ryoba would get around the depth problem. Any of these guides might be good initially as training wheels. But save your money to buy a decent dovetail saw and try doing them by hand without any guide as you will soon develop the muscle memory to cut them. It's not difficult after a short while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h3nry Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 5 hours ago, derekcohen said: I developed the use of blue tape to mark out, especially to transfer marks from the tail to the pin board. The tape does not do the sawing for you. It is not a guide. It is just a mark. But it really helps. I like the look of that blue-tape method, I've not seen that before. I'll definitely try that out next time. thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkinneb Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 5 hours ago, h3nry said: I like the look of that blue-tape method, I've not seen that before. I'll definitely try that out next time. thanks. Works well especially if your eyes are not what they used to be like mine I tried this for the first time on my tool chest project and it really help me see the lines better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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