Hand Cut Dovetails

[Janello]

Shane's box build thread got me thinking about this. I have yet to cut DT's by hand and it's something I want to try sooner than later. I was impressed with David Barrons method and was wondering if anyone endorsed his tools and methods or if he is catering more to the inept crowd?

 

[alan.mullock.3]

Try it and see,also try different tools and methods, pick what works for you and discard rest!

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[h3nry]

Shannon did a review of this recently

http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/rww201-barron-dovetail-guides/

He said it's not for him, but it seems he was more impressed than he thought he would be to start with.

[Janello]

Let me try it this way. If Hulk were to cut dovetails and Batman was helping, would they do it the David Barron way?

[JosephThomas]

1 hour ago, Janello said:

Let me try it this way. If Hulk were to cut dovetails and Batman was helping, would they do it the David Barron way?

Lol, no idea what that means, but it made me laugh to picture it. I'm guessing they'd use pine so that nothing nice was lost when he destroyed everything in frustration.

Shannon's review, as posted above, which I think most will agree with, is that they don't really work good as "training wheels" because they don't let you figure out the right body mechanics to make cuts correctly. The magnets just hold it in line regardless of how much you suck at keeping it there. However, he did say they'd work well for someone who is going to remain a mostly-power-tool-user, but wants to have these around for the occasional dovetail, but would do them so infrequently that their handsaw skills would be deteriorated in between projects that required it.

[shaneymack]

And John, one thing to keep in mind as well, it seems like its preferable to use a japanese saw with those guides. The spine of the western backsaws bottom out on the guide. Thats the thing that stood out in my mind and made me uninterested.

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[Eric.]

I think it's akin to a fence on a jointer plane.  Put in your time, take your lumps, summon your inner square and learn to do it the real way.  It just takes some practice.  Do the 30 dovetails in 30 days thing and I promise you'll be proficient if you don't have it mastered.

[..Kev]

I like to use the bandsaw and jig rather than his magnet device but, Eric is correct, practice makes perfect.

[Tom King]

It looks like it works fine, and is a foolproof method,  but it makes me uncomfortable in several ways.

A guide is a good idea for the Japanese saw, at least to start with when getting used to it if you aren't going to practice, since there is little steering one in the cut like a Western saw.  I prefer a backsaw.

If you do put money in a nice Japanese dovetail saw, don't pop anything off with it.  In experienced hands, like his, it's okay, but I don't like it as a demonstration to hew woodworkers.  If you can stop close enough to the finish to do that, just saw it all the way off.  That's the least amount of skill required.

I never liked marking anything where you need to "leave the line" with a marking knife.  I use a pencil, but then you might know about my pencils, but you probably don't really.  I always feel like I'm going to fall in the hole left from a marking knife when it's required to leave the line.

When pairing with a chisel, I like to just use hand pressure. If you need to use a mallet, you've probably left too much to pare off, and in any case, the chisel needs to be sharp enough to scare the wood out of the way in front of the edge.  Those chisels look like they're probably A2, and that's about as sharp as you can get them.  Another reason I like 01.

 If you're going to use a saw for the waste, cut to the line, and only call on the parer where it's needed.  You can't learn to cut to a line without starting to cut to the line at some point. It is harder for me to cut to a scribed line than a pencil line.  Reluctance seems to be the hardest thing for new woodworkers to overcome in so many parts of it.

I like chopping out the waste anyway, which doesn't take long with a sharp chisel, and no worry about sawing to the line, or how much waste to leave.

[JosephThomas]

On this note, do any of you guys like using the tapered dovetail saws? Or is that a gimmicky thing for a dovetail saw?

[Oldwood]

I have the Veritas version and I like it.  It is a confidence builder and reinforces the process.  I think it was helpful to me, as now I can do a pretty good dovetail without the assistance, although I would see no problem in using it all the time.  I think the veritas one is a bit cheaper than what Shannon used.  Good luck with whatever you chose.

Don

[Tom King]

I've never had a tapered one in my hand, unless it was just tapered from improper sharpening before I got it.  All mine are old, cheap ones.  I never look at the saw anyway.  I'm looking at the line I want to cut.

[mds2]

I do a lot of hand cut dovetails and I do not use a guide.  When I first taught myself I tried several methods.  Doing it "freehand" works best for me.  All you need to do is practice. 

One thing I love for dovetailing is "spy-ral" coping saw blades.  They cut in any direction.

[Immortan D]

That Barrons magnetic dovetail guide won't work with the average western-style dovetail saw.

I was also curious about those guides and then found this video:

 

[Janello]

Thanks guys, all great information. Hulk and Batman really helped!

[Tom King]

Here's the way to do it:  

 

[Don Z.]

On June 12, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Janello said:

Let me try it this way. If Hulk were to cut dovetails and Batman was helping, would they do it the David Barron way?

No.  He would do it Shannon's way.

[Coop]

John, I cut my first while building Marc's Krenov Inspired Display stand using Marc's instructions and I was tickled s#*tless with the outcome. It included both half blind and thru dt's. 

[wtnhighlander]

No.  He would do it Shannon's way.

Not a chance. Hulk smash.

[Eric.]

I heard a great quote the other day that I think fits this thread perfectly...

"In this age, which believes there is a shortcut to everything, the greatest lesson to be learned is that the most difficult way is, in the long-run, the easiest." - Henry Miller

[Ronn W]

Did Henry Miller work for the government?

[derekcohen]

Can David's guide help with half-blind dovetails? 

Shannon's review is excellent. Note that he shows that you need a special saw when using the guide (a d-e-e-p plate). One still needs to transfer marks, and that is where the skill lies.

Mastering dovetail cutting is nothing more than sawing to lines. The clearer the lines are seen, the easier it is the saw accurately. It was because of my ageing eyes that I developed the use of blue tape to mark out, especially to transfer marks from the tail to the pin board. The tape does not do the sawing for you. It is not a guide. It is just a mark. But it really helps.

Half Blind Dovetails with Blue Tape

Through Dovetails

These dovetails were done without a guide ...

(link to the near conclusion of this build: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TopOfTheWorldToYou.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[TerryMcK]

You can still use it for half blinds just tilting the saw at 45 to establish the line removing the guide when you get so far down. However the slight kerf of the saw will damage the face of the guide as you have the have the saw at an angle so the teeth now touch the guide face. 

The guide looks very similar in operation to the Veritas dovetail guide but without the Veritas's clamps. On that you need to use a non back saw to get around the depth problem with regular back saws. Veritas say "Rare earth magnets embedded in the anodised aluminum guide and covered with a layer of low friction UHMW plastic keep the saw perfectly aligned as you cut". In actual fact the thickness of the plastic takes the kerf into consideration and moves the saw over by that tiny amount. This stops the teeth from touching the aluminium except when doing half blinds when it chews up both the aluminium and plastic! C'est la vie.

So their own dovetail saw intended for the use with the guides or a Japanese Ryoba would get around the depth problem.

Any of these guides might be good initially as training wheels.

But save your money to buy a decent dovetail saw and try doing them by hand without any guide as you will soon develop the muscle memory to cut them. It's not difficult after a short while.

[h3nry]

5 hours ago, derekcohen said:

 I developed the use of blue tape to mark out, especially to transfer marks from the tail to the pin board. The tape does not do the sawing for you. It is not a guide. It is just a mark. But it really helps.

I like the look of that blue-tape method, I've not seen that before. I'll definitely try that out next time. thanks.

[pkinneb]

5 hours ago, h3nry said:

I like the look of that blue-tape method, I've not seen that before. I'll definitely try that out next time. thanks.

Works well especially if your eyes are not what they used to be like mine  

I tried this for the first time on my tool chest project and it really help me see the lines better.