Basement Project Journal

[Bankstick]

I agree but why do they put the two bars in a main panel?

[Tom King]

The two main bars have offset lugs, from each other, that the breakers make contact with.  Each bar carries 120 volts in different phase from the other bar.   A single pole breaker contacts only one of the lugs, regardless of where it's snapped in,  to access, and provide, the 120 volts.

A 240 volt double breaker contacts both of the bars by way of the offset lugs, thereby accessing, and providing 240 volts.

Separate bars for ground, and neutral are needed in case the panel is used for a sub-panel, where the ground, and neutral wires are to be separated.  In a sub-panel, the neutral bar is not bonded to the metal panel.  There is a bonding screw that can either be used, or left out to bond (ground) the bars to the metal box.

For a sub-panel, the only time neutrals are supposed to meet ground is at the point of the main panel.  It's only in the main (first) panel that it's okay to have them on the same bar, but I always separate them anyway. 

[drzaius]

Pedantic me is going to comment here. In a single phase 120/240V service, the 2 'hot' conductors are the same phase, but are 180* out of phase with each other. That is the case with almost all single family dwelling. With larger multi-family developments, it's common to bring in a 120/208V 3 phase service & then feed 120/208V to each suite panel with 2 phases & a neutral. The panel itself is manufactured as a single phase panel, but there are actually 2 phases.

As far as having the ground & neutral connected, it is required by code for them to be bonded in the service entrance (main breaker) compartment of the main panel. After that, the 2 must never touch. This may vary in some jurisdictions, but in recent years codes have been paying much more attention to this.

[pkinneb]

Passed the rough in inspection...

[pkinneb]

Wow three weeks since my last post...lots going on but not much to show i guess  

Primarily more wiring; cable coax, speaker, fan, cat 6, etc but I did get out to the shop to make some speaker boxes for the LCR front speakers as well as the front sub RCA locations. I also made an airbox as part of the return dead vent that will pull air from behind the AV rack.

First up the speaker boxes for the front wall. They probably look big but I needed 1.5 cu ft per speaker and since I could only get 3" deep they ended up being big.

glue up

They are made from 3/4 MDF with 1/4" layer of cement board for mass. I will use acoustic sealant on all the seems prior to drywall going up. They will also be filled with poli fill prior to speaker installation.

Next I worked on the return box for the back of the av rack

lined with Linacoustic RF for help sound proofing

Here is a shot from inside the AV alcove. you can also see I have run the conduits from the soffit to the alcove. Three conduits in total one to the projector (left) and two (right) for speaker wires.

Next I worked on the dead vent. I have a 6" flex pipe coming in from the back wall soffit and a 4" coming from the top of the AV alcove box into a 8x6x4 wye. In the first pic you can see the bracket I made to hold the wye on the right.

 

here it is put together but not tied down yet

Here is some shots of the hallway vent. The 10x14 opening on the front will have a vent for fan access.

...and everything buttoned up tested and ready for the final piece of insulation and drywall. You can see in the top left of this pick where I had to get creative with the drywall since the Menard's 2x4's warped almost a half  inch. You can also see the red putty pads covering the outlet boxes these are for soundproofing.

Here is a shot of one of the sub RCA jack backer boxes. This one actually may not be used but wanted one in each corner just in case. I will sheet rock over it and if I ever want to use it I will cut out and pull the wire out.

Here you can see the Directv coax, Cat 6, and fan cables have been run into the AV alcove.

and finally a pic of the front wall ready for insulation (soundproofing.) The wires hanging at the top of the wall as well as the HVAC flex pipes will be run inside of the soffits.

Next up finish insulation install, clips and resilient channel on the ceiling, then a layer of 5/8 OSB on the ceiling prior to drywall.

 

[pkinneb]

Man hard to believe its been almost 3 months since my last post!!

This is a busy time of year for me (April 15th can't come soon enough) but I have gotten a few things done in the basement should have all the sheet rock hung by the end of the month. In the theater I hung the clips and channel and filled the cavities with insulation all for soundproofing

Next for the first layer on the ceiling I went with OSB so I could mount both the soffits and the projector anywhere without worrying about it. The conduit in the middle of the room will be used for my fiber optic star ceiling. It will allow me to place the controllers in the soffit. 

First layer is all complete but apparently I didn't take a picture of that

I then started hanging sheet rock in the rest of the basement. The exercise room is done and the main basement is almost complete. The only interesting thing here is a tight curved wall I decided to do. First up I made a bending jig

Then I used a piece of coax to get the right measurement for the curve. The second layer was 5/8" wider than the first.

Then I whetted the front of the 1/4" sheet rock down (it will take two layers) then moved to the back

slowly massaging the curve into it

Here it is finished. Pretty happy with the results now I need to start thinking about how I'm going to handle the baseboard, I will probably steam it.

Next up finish the main basement and then start on the double layer of 5/8 sheet rock with green glue soundproofing for the walls and i layer over the OSB on the ceiling in the theater.

[sjeff70]

In terms of trying to eliminate butt joints when planning your drywall install, putting a tapered joint along a non-tapered joint is still a butt joint.  I couldn't find the answer to this anywhere, not in any article on my FHB magazine archive CD or any online forum where it's difficult determining one's expertise: everyone wants to be a expert.  

Something else I didn't know or read was how cuts for the ceiling are mirrored when using a drywall lift.  

Isn't it fun routing out the HVAC registers and receptacles?  I don't envy those who do this for a living but they sure make it look easy.  

 

[pkinneb]

6 hours ago, sjeff70 said:

... I don't envy those who do this for a living but they sure make it look easy.  

I'll be honest I had no intention of hanging the drywall but I couldn't get anyone to even call me back so just got to the point where I had to move on but truth be told I'm to old for this sh%# and at 55 i'm not that old LOL

[Tom King]

When I was building new houses, butt joints were planned during the framing.  Anywhere one went, there were glued double studs run down 3/32" on the jointer.  That way, the butt joint was recessed when the sheetrock was hung, and a long, aluminum straightedge used to tool the first couple of layers of mud over the butt joint.  Otherwise, there is no possible way to not have a hump over a butt joint.

When mudding a wall, after the first coat, i clamped a light onto the hawk, and the light was shined directly against, and across the wall.  I believe I have a thread on it somewhere on these forums.  After making sure the first coat had no high spots, that coat is primed, and then other coats of mud go on top of the primer.  Don't use PVA primer.  It doesn't sand well.

[sjeff70]

lol yea I'm 49.  I'm hiring out the mud and taping but when I was shopping around I couldn't find anyone to call me back either.  Either no call backs or they were out of business.  Weird.  I finally did find someone who could mud and tape but they are 6-8 weeks out.  

I checked into some of the gimmicks where you end a sheet between studs.  I like your solution Tom, if I ever do this again (NOT!) I'll go this route.

[Tom King]

A 3' aluminum angle helps even if the butt joint is not recessed.  The farther you feather it out, the less it shows.  I'll see if I can find a picture.

That's mostly the reason I learned how to do everything myself.  I figured that even if it took me three times as long to do anything, I would still be ahead.  It worked, and over the 33 years that I built new houses, I got progressively more efficient, and better equipped. 

edited to add:   I found a picture in my phone of a room we did this past Fall.  The aluminum angle is leaning against the wall.  I think it's just a 1x1, and came from Home Depot.  I just sighted it for straight in the store before buying it.  This was framed by someone else, and since that butt joint is well above eye level, it's not that noticeable.  Also notice that the mud is on top of primer on the wall.

 

 

[pkinneb]

Well the bad news is I didn't meet my goal to have all the sheet rock hung by the end of March the good news is everything outside of the theater is rocked and I hope to have the theater done in the next week or two. Then while I'm waiting for the taper to do his thing I will start on some cabinets, vanity for the bathroom, in wall dartboard cabinet, bar cabinets, etc. I cant tell you how much I am looking forward to getting some shop time 

The open ceilings will be drop ceilings so I always have access if I need it.

Main rec room

Hallway with bar entrance then the theater entrance on the left and dart board opening at the end

Bar

other end of rec room

Exercise room. this room will have 48" double glass doors. The wall opening is for a built in digital movie poster (now showing sign) which is at the bottom of the stairs

...and finally the theater and all 32 sheets of 5/8" fire rock waiting for me 

[Chet]

Did you build the miter saw cart just for the basement project or is the cart used in your shop also?

[Chestnut]

That curved piece looks aweosme. The progress is looking good got a lot done since the hand tool event.

So are you throwing a woodworkers only party as soon as you get this done?

[pkinneb]

2 hours ago, Chet said:

Did you build the miter saw cart just for the basement project or is the cart used in your shop also?

It’s from the shop. It sits in the stall where I store the lawnmower and my rough wood

[pkinneb]

Just now, Chestnut said:

That curved piece looks aweosme. The progress is looking good got a lot done since the hand tool event.

So are you throwing a woodworkers only party as soon as you get this done?

Thanks! 

Absolutely 

[Coop]

First class job. Looking great! 

@Tom King, why do you prime after the first coat of mud? 

[Tom King]

Once you are sure the first coat of mud has absolutely nowhere that is above the plane of the finished surface you want, I prime the whole wall.  It protects the paper from getting fuzzed up if any sanding needs to be done anywhere, but much more.  First coat of mud is just sponged, with typically no sanding.  It's only important that nowhere is too high.  It doesn't matter otherwise how rough it looks.

 The gypsum sheetrock compound swells any time it gets wet.  This means when you put the second coat of mud on, the first coat will swell again.  Only having the second coat to blade down, or sand, or however you lower it, because the first coat is now sealed under primer, leaves only a thin layer of mud to have to deal with, so it dries much quicker, and measured shrinking is less than if you had built up multiple coats on top of each other.

I prime, and paint walls with an airless sprayer.  Once it's in the room after the primer coat, a layer of Saran wrap gets put over the top of primer, or paint in the bucket that the pickup is in, and the gun just gets dropped in a bucket of water until the next day you want to spray.  The tip guard, and tip get taken off, and cleaned, but that's all.  Any time you want to spray something, the gun is pulled out of the bucket of water, wiped off, tip guard put back on, and away you go.

There may be touch-up spots to hit after you think you might be through, that get shown up by shining a light directly across the wall.  Once those get the final mud and sanding, this is often the only sanding I'll do.  They are sprayed with primer, the pickup is pulled out of the primer bucket, wiped off with a throwaway t-shirt, and pickup stuck in the bucket of paint.  Any primer left in the hose will get sprayed on the wall during the first part of the first coat of paint, but it doesn't matter a bit.  Later coats will cover it, and you only have to rinse out the airless system once for the whole job.  Since there is no air in the system, nothing will set up unless exposed to air.

The primer makes it all go so much easier.  Once mud is under cured primer, it won't swell again, and leaves you only very thin layers of dried mud to deal with.  The thinner you can knife it on, the less there is to shrink, so your bladeing progressively gets you to the finished plane, with little sanding to do.

Since I do everything, I'm both the finisher, and painter.  Typically, in house building one trade will follow another, so what one does, or doesn't do, eliminates combinations like this.  I've been doing sheetrock finishing like this since the mid 1980's, at least, never had a callback, and what walls I've seen that I built 30 years ago still look good.  I came up with my own methods for almost anything.  Hanging sheetrock followed my framing, which allowed for the sheetrock, and so on from the ground to the top of the roof.  As an example, if the tile to sheetrock joint is noticeable, tile guy will blame the sheetrock guy, and sheetrock guy will blame the tile guy.  

[pkinneb]

Well back to the theater! I need to finish installing the insulation in the inner walls. Just to be clear this is for soundproofing not insulating purposes. I am using a combination of paper backed and safe and sound I slit the paper backed so it doesn't form a vapor barrier since this is inside the plastic vapor barrier and just being used for the higher frequency sounds. 

Screen wall is complete. The flex ducts hanging down will eventually end up in the soffits the one on the left is connected to the HVAC supply and the one on the right is connected to an 8" fan that will supply air from the rec room and dump it into the theater, it will work on an electronic thermostat in the equipment rack. This will allow air circulation even when the HAVC is not running which keep the soundproof room from getting stale and too warm.

started on the side wall but got tired so I'll have to finish Friday when I get back from a business trip 

In this pic you can see the return lines again these will go in the soffit. The one at the back is connected to the HVAC return and the one on the right is a return connected to an 8" fan just like the supply from the rec room except it dumps into the hallway. The other difference is this one is split to a 6" into the room and a 4" line that pulls air from behind the equipment rack. Oh and that stack of 5/8 fire rock will hopefully be covering the walls by next week.

[pkinneb]

Got some more work done this weekend all the soundproofing insulation is up

After marking out everything and taking pics in case i need to find things later I started on the first layer of 5/8" drywall on the walls

I need to move the wiring for the septic alarm so I will do that and rock that section all at the same time later this week.

In the mean time I moved on to the screen wall. Due to all the speaker backer boxes the first layer of drywall did not all land on a 2x4's so I used 1x4 backer boards where the sheets met. Probably overkill but for a few bucks I thought it was worth it. The second layer seams will all land on 2x4's.

I also ran a bead of sound proofing sealant on the front of each backer box to seal them to the drywall

Got the first corner knocked out before I had to stop for the day. Up next more drywall  

On 4/2/2019 at 3:28 PM, Tom King said:

Once you are sure the first coat of mud has absolutely nowhere that is above the plane of the finished surface you want, I prime the whole wall.  It protects the paper from getting fuzzed up if any sanding needs to be done anywhere, but much more.  First coat of mud is just sponged, with typically no sanding.  It's only important that nowhere is too high.  It doesn't matter otherwise how rough it looks.

 The gypsum sheetrock compound swells any time it gets wet.  This means when you put the second coat of mud on, the first coat will swell again.  Only having the second coat to blade down, or sand, or however you lower it, because the first coat is now sealed under primer, leaves only a thin layer of mud to have to deal with, so it dries much quicker, and measured shrinking is less than if you had built up multiple coats on top of each other.

I prime, and paint walls with an airless sprayer.  Once it's in the room after the primer coat, a layer of Saran wrap gets put over the top of primer, or paint in the bucket that the pickup is in, and the gun just gets dropped in a bucket of water until the next day you want to spray.  The tip guard, and tip get taken off, and cleaned, but that's all.  Any time you want to spray something, the gun is pulled out of the bucket of water, wiped off, tip guard put back on, and away you go.

There may be touch-up spots to hit after you think you might be through, that get shown up by shining a light directly across the wall.  Once those get the final mud and sanding, this is often the only sanding I'll do.  They are sprayed with primer, the pickup is pulled out of the primer bucket, wiped off with a throwaway t-shirt, and pickup stuck in the bucket of paint.  Any primer left in the hose will get sprayed on the wall during the first part of the first coat of paint, but it doesn't matter a bit.  Later coats will cover it, and you only have to rinse out the airless system once for the whole job.  Since there is no air in the system, nothing will set up unless exposed to air.

The primer makes it all go so much easier.  Once mud is under cured primer, it won't swell again, and leaves you only very thin layers of dried mud to deal with.  The thinner you can knife it on, the less there is to shrink, so your bladeing progressively gets you to the finished plane, with little sanding to do.

Since I do everything, I'm both the finisher, and painter.  Typically, in house building one trade will follow another, so what one does, or doesn't do, eliminates combinations like this.  I've been doing sheetrock finishing like this since the mid 1980's, at least, never had a callback, and what walls I've seen that I built 30 years ago still look good.  I came up with my own methods for almost anything.  Hanging sheetrock followed my framing, which allowed for the sheetrock, and so on from the ground to the top of the roof.  As an example, if the tile to sheetrock joint is noticeable, tile guy will blame the sheetrock guy, and sheetrock guy will blame the tile guy.  

Tom what is your go to primer brand? I will be using a Graco airless sprayer.

 

[Tom King]

Anything but PVA.  Do not use PVA.   My go to is Zinsser Bullseye, but it does smell strong-even the water based.  It gives a nice hard surface that takes to sanding nicely.  PVA does not.

My favorite is Sherwin-Williams Wall and Wood, but it's expensive.  Bullseye does fine.

[pkinneb]

First layer of 5/8" drywall is up in the theater. I asked my son in law to come help me do the ceiling Friday, up til now I have lifted all the drywall by myself but 5/8"x4x12 are just to heavy for me to handle safely. It should go quick and the drywall hanging should be complete this weekend 

Here is the tool I use for the larger holes its made for installing speakers into ceilings it works well but couldn't quite get all the way through the 5/8" drywall.  A minute with a utility knife finished the job

Finally i'm not sure if I saw this trick on this website or another but it works great! I inadvertently cut a clean out hole to small so I thought I would give it a try. You use the smaller hole saw as a guide for the correct size...

 

[Chestnut]

The hole saw trick is a good one. It blows people's mind that have used hole saws but are baffled at how to make a small hole bigger

You can also use hole saws to make patches for filling holes in drywall.

[drzaius]

Go rent a drywall lift for the ceiling. You'll thank me later.

[Chestnut]

I've found it's cheaper to buy a drywall lift and sell it after the fact then it is to rent. They rent at $90 a week and you can buy it new for $160. Or try and find someone that realized that and is selling one.