Immortan D Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 AFAIK we're all "hybrid woodworkers" here at WTO, so nobody should be drawing the line in either direction. And for those of us hobbyists efficiency is not even a requirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 The whole argument is stupid. Handmade means "not mass produced by automation in a factory." A human with tools means handmade, whether it's plugged in or not. Sorry Daniel, but the CNC argument doesn't fly...that's a false comparison...they are not related. James Krenov, Sam Maloof, George Nakashima...all used machines. And they are all ten times the craftsman that Paul Sellers is. The skill to use tools is only a single part of being a woodworker. It doesn't define you one way or another. Dolmetscher...go where your dreams take you. Just know, at this point they are only dreams. I agree with the guys who said in so many words that after doing a project or two, you'll be begging for a few machines. Your visions through rose colored glasses will eventually be confronted by reality. No doubt. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortan D Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 3 minutes ago, Eric. said: The whole argument is stupid. Handmade means "not mass produced by automation in a factory." A human with tools means handmade, whether it's plugged in or not. Sorry Daniel, but the CNC argument doesn't fly...that's a false comparison...they are not related. I see contradiction there. It appears that you think that using a Leigh falls into the "handmade" category but using CNC (outside of a factory and without mass productions) does not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 That's correct. A CNC is fully automated, a dovetail jig is not. That's why it's called a jig, not a robot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortan D Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 1 minute ago, Eric. said: That's correct. A CNC is fully automated, a dovetail jig is not. That's why it's called a jig, not a robot. Well that's great news, man. Been doing a lot of handmade dovetails without even knowing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 Handmade, yeah, not hand cut. ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortan D Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 Just now, Eric. said: Handmade, yeah, not hand cut. ? I did cut them by hand, it was my hand moving the router, not a robot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 Handmade, yeah, not hand cut. ? I did cut them by hand, it was my hand moving the router, not a robot. Exactly. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronn W Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 3 hours ago, Immortan D said: "You cannot use a machine to work wood and call it Woodcraft. Can you cal it "Rockler?" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Wright Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 Best of luck to you. ALMOST EVERYTHING in furniture making can be done by hand, because fine fine furniture has existed a lot longer than power tools. As others have pointed out there are several hand tool craftsmen out there who have posted YouTube videos on things like cutting veneers. If that is your passion go for it and ignore all of the people on the Internet who accuse you of being crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 7 minutes ago, Andy Wright said: because fine fine furniture has existed a lot longer than power tools. I don't disagree... However, unless you're growing your own trees like Roy or at the very least visiting the plumber yard on horse and buggy you're cheating. Nobody is saying he's crazy. Only saying that some of us have had similar thoughts, and we would rather spend time making furniture, not making boards flat. Theses are opinions, not facts. Too often on the internet those are confused. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Wright Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 11 minutes ago, Llama said: I don't disagree... However, unless you're growing your own trees like Roy or at the very least visiting the plumber yard on horse and buggy you're cheating. I dont follow yoir logic. Sawmills have been around for a long time as well - fine furniture makers 200 years ago didn't chop down trees - they bought roughsawn lumber from a sawmill (same as today) 12 minutes ago, Llama said: Nobody is saying he's crazy. Only saying that some of us have had similar thoughts, and we would rather spend time making furniture, not making boards flat. Theses are opinions, not facts. Too often on the internet those are confused. Just trying to offer some positive vibes on a thread where most of the opinions have been that his desire to use hand tools is a bad idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 3 minutes ago, Andy Wright said: I dont follow yoir logic. Sawmills have been around for a long time as well - fine furniture makers 200 years ago didn't chop down trees - they bought roughsawn lumber from a sawmill (same as today) Perhaps you didn't read the second part of what I wrote... Either way, someone somewhere cut down the trees (same as today). Only now, those trees are being cut down with big machines. Not a two man saw. Furthermore, the furniture shops 200 years ago had shop assistants surface their lumber for them. I don't know about you, but if I'm ever in the position where I have the word assistant associated with my title, I've done something horribly wrong with my life. If someone wants to go all hand tool, then do it. Go all hand tool. The horse and buggy were for illustrative purposes, I'll be careful to spell it out next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Wright Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 4 minutes ago, Llama said: Perhaps you didn't read the second part of what I wrote... Either way, someone somewhere cut down the trees (same as today). Only now, those trees are being cut down with big machines. Not a two man saw. Furthermore, the furniture shops 200 years ago had shop assistants surface their lumber for them. I don't know about you, but if I'm ever in the position where I have the word assistant associated with my title, I've done something horribly wrong with my life. If someone wants to go all hand tool, then do it. Go all hand tool. The horse and buggy were for illustrative purposes, I'll be careful to spell it out next time. I read the part about the horse and buggy but didn't really understand why it mattered. Is it cheating if you drive a horse and buggy but build the furniture in Levis that came from the store instead of homespun clothes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prov163 Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 I agree with Eric (and you know how that drives me crazy ) about the CNC. CNC, like 3D printing, is where I draw the line. With the exception of loading the wood/medium into the machine, everything else is button pushing. Those computers turn out beautiful work, but I find it hard to call it woodworking. Whenever I see one of those Legacy CNC units I keep hearing HAL say, "Dave, I am completely operational, and all my circuits are functioning perfectly." I AM NOT denigrating those who use them in their shops as "part" of their process, but for ME once the entire build is done by the CNC it's just not woodworking. My opinion and $5 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. Now, I need to go cut a few dovetails by hand, then make some M&T joints with my drill press and dado stack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 2 minutes ago, Andy Wright said: I read the part about the horse and buggy but didn't really understand why it mattered. Is it cheating if you drive a horse and buggy but build the furniture in Levis that came from the store instead of homespun clothes? Are you really not getting this? I'm not trying to be insulting here, but I've already spelled this out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Wright Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 7 minutes ago, Llama said: Are you really not getting this? I'm not trying to be insulting here, but I've already spelled this out. You win. The prize is in the mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 4 minutes ago, Andy Wright said: You win. The prize is in the mail. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodger. Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 I don't have a bandsaw, so I occasionally rip (not resaw) 8/4 hardwood by hand with a pax rip saw. It is a load of work, and my arm is pretty tired by the end of one 6 foot long rip. Saw is sharp and waxed. Tim fidgen is a guy who rips and resaws and dimension everything by hand. Check out his blog to see some of his work and method (unplugged woodshop). Recently I bought a ridgid gen5x cordless circ saw. I often use that now to rip hardwood for rough cuts - I don't feel like I'm cheating at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Andy Wright said: Just trying to offer some positive vibes on a thread where most of the opinions have been that his desire to use hand tools is a bad idea I don't think anyone was saying it's a bad idea...I think, speaking for myself at least, that many of us who have been down that road have realized it's a whole lot more work than we expected, it's filled with frustration and sweat and sore arms...and turns out it's not quite as glorious and satisfying as we thought it would be because ultimately we just did something the hardest way possible. I say it's important to learn all of these hand tool techniques, practice them some, maybe build a piece or two from start to finish that way...then buy a few machines. Because - again, speaking for myself - I find labor in the workshop to be a monumental waste of time. I have so little of it already I'm not gonna squander any of it on apprentice work. It just defies common sense to do so. Maybe if I was a retired old man who needed exercise or something it might be worth the effort. But I think my desire to build as many projects as I can before I die would still trump it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat60 Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 I'm glad the disagreement is over but the cat was funny. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortan D Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 What about that CNC assisted handheld router we recently discussed in another thread, Eric? Can we "handmake" stuff with It? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krtwood Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 1 hour ago, prov163 said: I agree with Eric (and you know how that drives me crazy ) about the CNC. CNC, like 3D printing, is where I draw the line. With the exception of loading the wood/medium into the machine, everything else is button pushing. Those computers turn out beautiful work, but I find it hard to call it woodworking. ... I AM NOT denigrating those who use them in their shops as "part" of their process, but for ME once the entire build is done by the CNC it's just not woodworking. My opinion and $5 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. It's just a router following a template. The template happens to be in the computer. How did it get in the computer? Somebody made it. A dovetail jig is basically a cnc machine. A template attached to a piece so you can flush trim it to the exact size is basically a cnc machine. There is no art in keeping a bearing on a template. The art was in creating the template in the first place. When Marc did the Blacker House chair he was basically William Ng's cnc machine. You could make an argument that an entirely cnc produced piece that a person designed themselves is more handmade than Marc's copy of William Ng's templates of the Greene's design. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post midtnwoodworker Posted August 30, 2016 Popular Post Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 This was kind of exhausting to read. Honestly who really cares what someone calls something? We all probably have our own line of what is "handmade" , but again why does anyone care? Just go build what makes you happy, the way it makes you happy, and quit squabbling over what to call something. Good day. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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