Re-sawing veneers with hand tools. i.e. no band saw.

[Tpt life]

Is my LAJ my hand or a machine? Well there goes my sleep tonight. 

[krtwood]

2 hours ago, prov163 said:

Not sure I would agree with your last sentence but that would probably be the view of younger generations who have lived in a world dominated by computers and smartphones. Here's the main difference in my opinion. If the CNC's computer hard drive crashes Marc can still make the chair. The programmer, not so much. 

Only because he got to bring home copies of the templates.  Otherwise he's starting from scratch, just like the cnc guy.  Plus the cnc guy can have a backup and an offsite backup.  If you're relying on physical templates and your shop burns down, you probably don't have copies of them.  

 

2 hours ago, Eric. said:

That is absolute hogwash!  You're confusing programming software with building something.

Now creatively, you may have a point.  When someone builds a reproduction of another piece, certainly that's far less artistic than a person coming up with a unique new CNC design idea.  But we're talking about craftsmanship, which requires skills of the hand and eye, of which CNC requires very little to none...and I think any sensible person would agree.

I dove into my foxhole right after I posted that because I'm sensible, but I don't agree.  I would argue craftsmanship requires caring about what you are doing more than skill.  If you care about your work you'll get to good results regardless of how you get there.  People disrespect cnc work because they feel like the level of precision it offers wasn't earned.  You don't just sit down and hit a button and a chair comes out.  All the same crap that happens when you use a router on wood still happens when you use a cnc, so you still have to know your stuff.  

[prov163]

18 minutes ago, krtwood said:

Only because he got to bring home copies of the templates.  Otherwise he's starting from scratch, just like the cnc guy.  Plus the cnc guy can have a backup and an offsite backup.  If you're relying on physical templates and your shop burns down, you probably don't have copies of them.  

 

I dove into my foxhole right after I posted that because I'm sensible, but I don't agree.  I would argue craftsmanship requires caring about what you are doing more than skill.  If you care about your work you'll get to good results regardless of how you get there.  People disrespect cnc work because they feel like the level of precision it offers wasn't earned.  You don't just sit down and hit a button and a chair comes out.  All the same crap that happens when you use a router on wood still happens when you use a cnc, so you still have to know your stuff.  

That's like saying what happens to the CNC guy if the power grid goes down from an EMP.  Could happen but...  Anyway, point taken. 

I think the small shop CNC's are much like the automated processes in many manufacturing plants. I'm not discounting the computer skills of the person using it. I have a friend who uses a CNC and he's obsessed with axis calculations. I just think the infinitely repeatable precision of computerized cuts removes the human aspect from the equation. But then I still don't like instant replay in football   

I bet the OP decided to try leather working. He has no idea how opinionated those people are - LOL. 

[Brendon_t]

3 hours ago, Woodenskye said:

I really hope you are 21 beers into a case, that is the only logical explanation of this statement. 

Or I was continuing the gobeleygook that proceeded..

[RichardA]

This thread should have halted long ago.. there's no reason for this argument to continue. This whole thing is about interpretation, and that's up to the individual! Now please, can we move on!

[wtnhighlander]

... Or move it to the Hijack! thread.

[Eric.]

I can't get on board.  No one will ever convince me that pressing a button requires craftsmanship on any level.  Programming the machine, yes, you have to use your brain to do that.  Your hands can stay in your pockets aside from the clicking of the mouse.  The only woodworking involved in CNC is getting the part cut to size before you slap it on the table.

CNC is cool.  Great, use it.  I see it the same as using Brusso hinges.  They're awesome.  They are part of my project.  They just don't happen to be a part of my project I had anything to do with making, even though I'll be pondering and executing the installation...I didn't make the thing itself.  An engraving from a CNC is the same way.  You pressed the button, you installed the hinge...but you sure as hell didn't make anything.

If CNC means handcrafted, then so does mass produced factory furniture.  IKEA is now handcrafted because people work in the buildings and manipulate the sheet goods.  The shark has been jumped at that point and now we have to agree that robots and humans are the same.

[Gixxerjoe04]

49 minutes ago, Eric. said:

I can't get on board.  No one will ever convince me that pressing a button requires craftsmanship on any level.  Programming the machine, yes, you have to use your brain to do that.  Your hands can stay in your pockets aside from the clicking of the mouse.  The only woodworking involved in CNC is getting the part cut to size before you slap it on the table.

CNC is cool.  Great, use it.  I see it the same as using Brusso hinges.  They're awesome.  They are part of my project.  They just don't happen to be a part of my project I had anything to do with making, even though I'll be pondering and executing the installation...I didn't make the thing itself.  An engraving from a CNC is the same way.  You pressed the button, you installed the hinge...but you sure as hell didn't make anything.

If CNC means handcrafted, then so does mass produced factory furniture.  IKEA is now handcrafted because people work in the buildings and manipulate the sheet goods.  The shark has been jumped at that point and now we have to agree that robots and humans are the same.

I know a guy who basically sold all of his woodworking tools and bought a big ass cnc, just cuts out those dumb monograms and crap like that.  Have to bite my tongue every time I see someone comment on how talented he is, having a cnc carve out some letters in mdf takes about much talent as making a bowl of cereal. 

[Tom Cancelleri]

10 minutes ago, Gixxerjoe04 said:

I know a guy who basically sold all of his woodworking tools and bought a big ass cnc, just cuts out those dumb monograms and crap like that.  Have to bite my tongue every time I see someone comment on how talented he is, having a cnc carve out some letters in mdf takes about much talent as making a bowl of cereal. 

Hey! Making a bowl of cereal can get very complex. Between slicing a banana, washing and slicing strawberries, and pouring the milk. There's lots that go into a hand made bowl of cereal. 

 

I'm going to agree and disagree on the CNC thing. If your entire project is made with the CNC and all you do is slap on some finish. It's not woodworking.  However, if you're using the CNC to add something like a complex inlay, detailed carving, or accent of some kind, but the rest of your project has been milling, chiseling, planing, and finessing parts on that project, you're still woodworking and that CNC is allowing you to either save some time on a very tedious and time consuming task like doing a detailed inlay, or carving something which generally requires a very artistic mindset. I can't draw worth a damn, and carving is very much like drawing. If I can visualize it and generate it on a computer, why not use it.

[Llama]

11 hours ago, krtwood said:

People disrespect cnc work because they feel like the level of precision it offers wasn't earned.  You don't just sit down and hit a button and a chair comes out.

When I worked as a machine builder, the machine shop had a saying regarding CNC machines. And it's true... The first one is expensive.

After that, pure replicas. I have nothing against using a CNC for anything. There are clearly some people on here that regard the process of work in a higher esteem than the result of the work. 

[rodger.]

32 minutes ago, Tom Cancelleri said:

Hey! Making a bowl of cereal can get very complex. Between slicing a banana, washing and slicing strawberries, and pouring the milk. There's lots that go into a hand made bowl of cereal. 

Artisan cereal!

[Pwk5017]

8 minutes ago, Llama said:

There are clearly some people on here that regard the process of work in a higher esteem than the result of the work. 

+1 on this statement. Actually, +1,000 across the entire craft of woodworking. Nothing against them though, enjoy resawing a board by hand and the tactile sensation it transmits up your arm. Whatever gets you excited about making things. 

[Gilgaron]

1 hour ago, Eric. said:

I can't get on board.  No one will ever convince me that pressing a button requires craftsmanship on any level.  Programming the machine, yes, you have to use your brain to do that.  Your hands can stay in your pockets aside from the clicking of the mouse.  The only woodworking involved in CNC is getting the part cut to size before you slap it on the table.

I think part of the reason for the butthurt in the thread is that this isn't anything that can't be said about a table saw doing a rip.  Now, I prefer hand tools but I sure do use my table saw to rip things... and it involves pushing a button and far minimal skill compared to doing so by hand.  I can even keep my non-mouse hand in my pocket. 

So in 50 years the CNC guys will be complaining about the new folks using AIs to set up the CNC program instead of programming it themselves like real craftsman woodworkers.  And using lasers instead of spinning carbide bits!  Where's the tradition in that?  The new guys will be talking about how it takes real skill to set the parameters for the AI and keep it from going after Sarah Conner.  After that the T1000 will just make his hand into a chisel blade and it'll have gone full circle. 

[Tpt life]

I am not sure when discourse became butt hurt. Expression of conflicting views strengthens the community. Otherwise, we split into multiple forums instead of sharing this space. 

[prov163]

1 hour ago, Tom Cancelleri said:

If your entire project is made with the CNC and all you do is slap on some finish. It's not woodworking.  However, if you're using the CNC to add something like a complex inlay, detailed carving, or accent of some kind, but the rest of your project has been milling, chiseling, planing, and finessing parts on that project, you're still woodworking and that CNC is allowing you to either save some time on a very tedious and time consuming task like doing a detailed inlay, or carving something which generally requires a very artistic mindset. I can't draw worth a damn, and carving is very much like drawing. If I can visualize it and generate it on a computer, why not use it.

Well said Tom.  That's where I am.  There are certainly some situations where a CNC might be beneficial - such as a complex inlay or carving, that saves time and increases the detail of the final project.  But if all you're doing is throwing a piece of wood on the bed and waiting for the router to create your project, it might end up beautiful but it's not woodworking IMHO.

Funny coincidence that my grandsons were at my house last night.  On my coffee table I have a little maze with a BB in it that I picked up at a Legacy demo when I visited the WW Show in Atlanta a couple of years back.  One of the boys was playing with it when the other came out with a toy train I made in the shop.  I expected a fight over the toys, which is common, but interestingly enough they were both happy with the toy they were playing with.  They didn't care which was made by a CNC and which was made by Grandpa. Here's the difference - I felt a sense of pride watching the toy train go by with my youngest grandson making choo-choo noises.  Why?  Because I made that train by hand with them in mind.  The choice of materials, the mistakes I had to fix, the sanding and finishing were all done by me, with my hands, for them.  I guess a CNC guy can say the same thing about programming the computer but, at least for me, it's not quite the same.

I have a desk in my house that was made by my grandfather.  I'm sure I could go to a nice furniture store and buy a fancier one, but my grandfather made this one by hand and I remember playing at it as a child.  It has an honored position in my house and will be handed down to my children, and grandchildren I hope.

No disrespect intended to the CNC crowd - just my viewpoint.

28 minutes ago, C Shaffer said:

I am not sure when discourse became butt hurt. Expression of conflicting views strengthens the community. Otherwise, we split into multiple forums instead of sharing this space. 

Absolutely!  Love the debate and learn as I go.

[Elroy Skimms]

The truth is that the definition of "handmade", like just about everything else in this world is a spectrum. We each have our own idea where on the spectrum "handmade" begins and ends, and for most people (myself included), we define that limit a little further up the technology curve than we ourselves are willing to go.

On one end of the spectrum, we have felling trees and carving components out with stones. Not shaped stone tools, but literally rocks from the ground. We all agree this is considered handmade. We progress the tech tree to shaped stones and eventually have steel blades, first man-powered and then water & steam driven. Yet we all still generally agree that this is hand made. Why? Because we exist further up the tech tree and these devices might as well be stone tools for how far behind we have left them. A woodworker from 1750 might argue against your definition of handmade because you might use a Festool Domino or a thickness planer. "Handmade" is subjective, relative, and exists on a spectrum. On the opposite end of the spectrum we have furniture made entirely by machine, from logging the timber to applying the finish; the first human to touch it is the owner who opens the box. We can all agree this not handmade. Somewhere between rocks and robots, we each draw the line differently, and in general, we each draw that line higher up the tech tree than our own process.

Arguing over the exact location on the spectrum where handmade ends and machine-made begins is an exercise in futility. It's entirely subjective based on where our own specific process is on the tech tree. We take for granted all the machines that brought an actual tree into our possession and only look at what we do. We look at what we touch. What we've trained our hands to do. We all consider what we do handmade, because we know how much time we put into making it. When someone else finds a shortcut, we may allow it, or we may not. We all have a different tolerance on what we will allow in our own personal definition of "handmade". We might as well argue about our favorite colors. My choice will not be your choice. My definition will not be your definition.

My $0.02.

-E

[Immortan D]

1 hour ago, Gilgaron said:

I think part of the reason for the butthurt in the thread is that this isn't anything that can't be said about a table saw doing a rip.  Now, I prefer hand tools but I sure do use my table saw to rip things... and it involves pushing a button and far minimal skill compared to doing so by hand.  I can even keep my non-mouse hand in my pocket. 

The higher the chances to fail, the higher the skills required to succeed. Some woodworkers take more chances than others and make things in a traditional way, even for repetitive tasks like ripping, because they like to work with their hands. Now some people here will say they lack common sense... I don't agree with that, not if you enjoy the process instead of just the results.

 

[Elroy Skimms]

1 minute ago, Immortan D said:

The higher the chances to fail, the higher the skills required to succeed.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I don't use a coping saw, don't even own one. I cut curves with MDF templates and a router table whenever possible. If I misread the grain on the work piece or if something goes bad, the cutter spinning at 18,000 RPM will take things from bad to worse really quickly. If you make a bad pass with a coping saw, your mistake is likely something that can be fixed with some sanding. The risk of total failure is much higher with a power tool, but the skills required are much higher for a coping saw. I find that power tools make things go faster, but when a mistake is made, they are far less forgiving compared to hand tools.

-E

[Immortan D]

1 minute ago, Elroy Skimms said:

I'm not sure I agree with that. I don't use a coping saw, don't even own one. I cut curves with MDF templates and a router table whenever possible. If I misread the grain on the work piece or if something goes bad, the cutter spinning at 18,000 RPM will take things from bad to worse really quickly. If you make a bad pass with a coping saw, your mistake is likely something that can be fixed with some sanding. The risk of total failure is much higher with a power tool, but the skills required are much higher for a coping saw. I find that power tools make things go faster, but when a mistake is made, they are far less forgiving compared to hand tools.

-E

If you fail at cutting a curve with a MDF template, you can just cut it again on a new piece of wood. You only lost a couple of minutes.

[Elroy Skimms]

Just now, Immortan D said:

If you fail at cutting a curve with a MDF template, you can just cut it again on a new piece of wood. You only lost a couple of minutes.

True, but if you fail with a coping saw, you just sand the bump and move on. I guess it depends on how you measure success/failure. Replacing parts every time I screw up (and I screw up a lot) vs being able to correct the mistake and continue using that piece. When my burn pile from a project is larger than the project, I would put that in the riskier category compared to having to sand a few spots a little more. Risking time vs risking material is perhaps the difference here.

-E

[Immortan D]

4 minutes ago, Elroy Skimms said:

True, but if you fail with a coping saw, you just sand the bump and move on. I guess it depends on how you measure success/failure. Replacing parts every time I screw up (and I screw up a lot) vs being able to correct the mistake and continue using that piece. When my burn pile from a project is larger than the project, I would put that in the riskier category compared to having to sand a few spots a little more. Risking time vs risking material is perhaps the difference here.

-E

After many fails, you will eventually learn how to read the grain and use your router in such a way to prevent tearout. That's a skill, of course, that will allow you to mass produce identical pieces from a single template.

[Llama]

[Elroy Skimms]

13 minutes ago, Immortan D said:

After many fails, you will eventually learn how to read the grain and use your router in such a way to prevent tearout.

You assume far too much about me  My burn pile is large, my brain, not so much.

-E

[Gixxerjoe04]

2 hours ago, Tom Cancelleri said:

Hey! Making a bowl of cereal can get very complex. Between slicing a banana, washing and slicing strawberries, and pouring the milk. There's lots that go into a hand made bowl of cereal. 

 

I'm going to agree and disagree on the CNC thing. If your entire project is made with the CNC and all you do is slap on some finish. It's not woodworking.  However, if you're using the CNC to add something like a complex inlay, detailed carving, or accent of some kind, but the rest of your project has been milling, chiseling, planing, and finessing parts on that project, you're still woodworking and that CNC is allowing you to either save some time on a very tedious and time consuming task like doing a detailed inlay, or carving something which generally requires a very artistic mindset. I can't draw worth a damn, and carving is very much like drawing. If I can visualize it and generate it on a computer, why not use it.

I'm talking plain old rice krispys haha.

I'm the same way when it comes to the cnc, if that's the only thing you use, it's not woodworking.  Using it to add something totally different to your woodwork, def don't see a problem.

Example, Frank Howarth

 

[krtwood]

4 hours ago, Eric. said:

I can't get on board.  No one will ever convince me that pressing a button requires craftsmanship on any level.  Programming the machine, yes, you have to use your brain to do that.  Your hands can stay in your pockets aside from the clicking of the mouse.  The only woodworking involved in CNC is getting the part cut to size before you slap it on the table.

Let me start by saying I'm not an all cnc guy or a millennial with their smart phone glued to their face.  Very rarely have I done a piece that was entirely done on the cnc and I've had a smart phone for about 3 months.  So I'm saying this as a person with a foot on both sides not a cnc guy who is up in arms about it.  With that said, when you say stuff like it's just pushing a button and slapping on some finish it sounds to me like someone who has seen an Ana White video and thinks they know what is involved in doing what you do.  When have you ever gone straight from routing something to applying finish?  Especially with entry level cnc machines the surface quality is generally worse than what you are getting from your machines.

4 hours ago, Eric. said:

If CNC means handcrafted, then so does mass produced factory furniture.  IKEA is now handcrafted because people work in the buildings and manipulate the sheet goods.  The shark has been jumped at that point and now we have to agree that robots and humans are the same.

There's different levels of mass produced furniture.  A well made mass produced piece may very well have better quality joinery than what a hobbyist woodworker is doing because they've got machines dialed in for doing just that.  Where the hobbyist can really do better is in the material selection because the mass produced shop just has a guy taking the next board off the stack.  That's still true if you're using a cnc to cut out solid wood.

Case in point, the project I'm working on right now has a little bit of cnc work on the doors but that's it.  I decided to use a couple walnut boards that were heartwood on one side and a strip of heartwood with sapwood on either side on the other.  I decided to face the sapwood out.  I carefully laid out my parts and rough cut them and then when I was planing down to 9/16" to suit the size of the cabinet I would plane more on one side than the other to try to maintain that look.  I did the same when ripping to final width, trying to keep the heartwood centered.  Then I laid out the parts in the shape of the cabinets and this was the first time I was really looking at the edges of the boards rather than the faces.  A couple were dark, a couple were light, the rest were in between.  It looked like crap.  So half of those parts became test pieces and I went back and milled more stock.  I didn't have enough so for the middle vertical pieces you would only see the edge of so I applied a strip of color matching wood like edge banding.

I think that exemplifies what craftsmanship is about.  It doesn't really matter how I execute the joinery after that, as long as I execute it well.  Even if the execution is a little flawed there is hopefully a rightness baked into it that transcends the little flaws that only I know are there anyway.  I didn't do anything when jointing, planing, and ripping that required any skills that I couldn't teach someone off the street in 10 minutes but that was where the craftsmanship came into the piece.