The "why" question

[collinb]

So I watched Sellers' mortise & tenon video that's in the hand tools section.

The question comes to mind: Given the quality of today's power tools, why would one, in practical terms, spend the time? Is there really a quality difference or does it just lend weight to the label "hand crafted?"

This is not meant to demean the hand craftsman. But it seems to me to be like Morse Code. Anyone who has been to Hamvention has likely heard it as an art form. There's nothing like it. But, while it has certain beauty about it, the question of its usefulness becomes clear.

(Of course it seems some cuts that can be done in a cleaner fashion with a hand tool. At that point there is a qualitative usefulness that's resolved.)

Just a question. Please don't flame me.

[minorhero]

On this forum a lot of people are approaching woodworking as purely a hobby. How far down the hand tool or power tool road you go depends entirely upon your own desires. There are people on this forum who don't even use circular saws let alone other types of power tools. And there are people on this forum who don't even own a hand plane. There is no real advantage to hand cutting a mortise and tenon there are some disadvantages mostly concerning with time and effort. However since once again this is a hobby for most people here the real reason to doing anything in hand tools that can be done just as easily with power tools is because they enjoy that using hand tool more.

[Chet]

I think some find it cathartic.  I don't think you would find production shops doing hand cut M&T, so those that are doing it are probably going for the relaxation and stress relief it provides to them personally.  If you are a total hand tool person then there is no choice.  But if you are a power tool or hybrid worker then like Eric said there is no practical reason to do it because no one will see it in the finished product.

[Wood Basher]

55 minutes ago, Eric. said:

M&T by hand is a complete waste of time because you can't see the joint.  Dovetails, different story.

I disagree. For some people, myself included, the enjoyment is in the process and the satisfaction is in the quality of the result, even if there is no visible joinery to admire or show off. Perhaps it is similar to someone who plays the piano as a hobby. They don't have to make a recording to enjoy making music because they enjoy the process of making music. They don't always need to produce evidence of their skill to enjoy developing and using that skill.

[Minnesota Steve]

Paul Seller's motivation is to teach woodworking with minimal tools.   His overarching point that with a tool box with a couple dozen tools in it, you can build something.   This is why you see him talking about Aldi chisels and other cheap tools.   He's trying to teach that woodworking is easily accessible.

Case in point, he uses a simple bench chisel for his mortises... not a special mortising chisel, just to show it can be done.

[drzaius]

Generally speaking, sometimes it's just faster to do it by hand rather than go through the machine setup for just 1 or 2 joints.

[drzaius]

4 minutes ago, Mike. said:

I really don't like Sellers for a bunch of reasons, but I do respect his woodworking and the fact that all instructors need to have an angle if they are going to suceed.  I just find him to be disengenous.  He is full of crap when he says "minimal tools."  That mortise technique requires perfect 4 square stock, and as he says, the only way to get perfect 4 sqaure stock is to machine it.  You can not buy stock that is perfectly machined, and certainly not machined to the size you need.  Once you have a jointer and planer (which are required for that technique, even though he doesn't show them), you might as well buy a tablesaw and save yourself a whole bunch of time.  He is selling a false hope when he says you can buy perfectly square stock and sharpen a $15 chisel and get good results.  

That pretty much sums up my opinion as well.

[Eric.]

49 minutes ago, Wood Basher said:

I disagree. For some people, myself included, the enjoyment is in the process and the satisfaction is in the quality of the resul

Well if the satisfaction is in the quality of the result, even more reason to do M&T with a machine.  It's simply more precise.  Period.

I just said it was a waste of time...didn't say some people don't enjoy it.  Personally I enjoy completing projects more than laboring unnecessarily, so I choose my battles with hand tools and tend to use them only for things that will yield some kind of aesthetic advantage.  Chopping a M&T by hand is doing something the hard way when you don't have to.  More power to ya but it doesn't make much sense to take the long and difficult way to the same result.

22 minutes ago, drzaius said:

Generally speaking, sometimes it's just faster to do it by hand rather than go through the machine setup for just 1 or 2 joints.

Not if you have a Domino.

[4square]

The answer to your question "Why" is " Why Not"

[Marmotjr]

32 minutes ago, drzaius said:

Generally speaking, sometimes it's just faster to do it by hand rather than go through the machine setup for just 1 or 2 joints.

^+1

I am a hand tool newb.  But since I've started working full time in a shop, I've suddenly gotten exposure (and first hand mentoring) on proper techniques and applications.  Now, my 1/2" chisel is in my everyday carry.  I have my tool bag for all my tools, but there's about a half dozen things I carry on hand, and my chisel is one of them.  I don't have a saw yet but after playing with some peoples, a Dozuki is going to be ordered this week.   I have found the ease at just using the hand tool to quickly tweak something to be hugely satisfying.  I could shave a hair off this board with the table saw, or I could just grab a 14" sanding block or hand plane and be done with it.   Chopping out an shoulder or cheek is so much more fun than a powered method.  

I think if you have the access to the hand tools, and want to work in a hybrid environment, you should at least for a while to find places to use your hand tools.  Stop yourself and ask what hand tool would you use here.  Then try that tool.   If it sucks to do it that way, then you'll know to use a power tool next time.  After a while, it will become instinct on when to whip out your chisel or power up the bandsaw. 

[davewyo]

Nobody has mentioned it, and it is not germane to the Paul Sellers question, but I often use hand tools when I have a lot of work in a part and I don't have the guts to get it anywhere near a tool going thousands of RPMs. When it's a delicate operation I feel like I have more control with a hand tool. It's not always true but oftentimes I feel like things can't go so horribly wrong if I'm using hand powered tools.

[Llama]

I like my chisels and mallet. Makes noise. That's how people know I'm working.

[wdwerker]

Your parents answered the why question ! " Because I said so ! ". 

I agree with Dave. If it's a part that's got a lot invested in it careful hand work is an easy choice. Otherwise I'm reaching for my Domino. 

[jjongsma]

2 hours ago, minorhero said:

On this forum a lot of people are approaching woodworking as purely a hobby. How far down the hand tool or power tool road you go depends entirely upon your own desires. There are people on this forum who don't even use circular saws let alone other types of power tools. And there are people on this forum who don't even own a hand plane. There is no real advantage to hand cutting a mortise and tenon there are some disadvantages mostly concerning with time and effort. However since once again this is a hobby for most people here the real reason to doing anything in hand tools that can be done just as easily with power tools is because they enjoy that using hand tool more.

Ignoring the "enjoyment" aspect, this statement is mostly true, but not completely. For a person with limited space, hand-cutting a mortise and tenon makes a lot of sense. I can do it with only a chisel, a backsaw, and a workbench. On the other hand, a machine cut mortise and tenon will likely involve a hollow chisel mortiser or router, and a tablesaw or bandsaw (and probably a workbench for cleanup/fitting). And while it's certainly slower to chop a 8 mortises by hand, it's fast enough for me (and I'm getting a bit faster every time I do it). I have an all hand-tool shop (+bandsaw) mostly because I enjoy working that way. But also because I simply don't have room for a bunch of machines.

[Tom King]

As a person who gets paid to produce work, I do whichever is more efficient.  If I have one to cut, it's faster to do it by hand.  If I have several to cut, where each one is a different distance from the edge, and/or the piece is 20 feet long, it's simply easier to do it by hand than to take time with machine setup.  If I have one to do, and the right size chisel and bit are in a machine, I'll use the machine for that one.  If I have 138 to do, I'll take time to set up the machines just right.

Picture is a 20 foot piece where the mortises were all different distances from the face. 

[Tpt life]

I just don't care.  He does what he does. I do what I do. Like him...hate him, makes no difference to me. 

[Eric.]

27 minutes ago, jjongsma said:

Ignoring the "enjoyment" aspect, this statement is mostly true, but not completely. For a person with limited space, hand-cutting a mortise and tenon makes a lot of sense. I can do it with only a chisel, a backsaw, and a workbench. On the other hand, a machine cut mortise and tenon will likely involve a hollow chisel mortiser or router, and a tablesaw or bandsaw (and probably a workbench for cleanup/fitting). And while it's certainly slower to chop a 8 mortises by hand, it's fast enough for me (and I'm getting a bit faster every time I do it). I have an all hand-tool shop (+bandsaw) mostly because I enjoy working that way. But also because I simply don't have room for a bunch of machines.

A Domino is about the size of a chisel roll.

[Minnesota Steve]

2 hours ago, Mike. said:

I really don't like Sellers for a bunch of reasons, but I do respect his woodworking and the fact that all instructors need to have an angle if they are going to suceed.  I just find him to be disengenous.  He is full of crap when he says "minimal tools."  That mortise technique requires perfect 4 square stock, and as he says, the only way to get perfect 4 sqaure stock is to machine it.  You can not buy stock that is perfectly machined, and certainly not machined to the size you need.  Once you have a jointer and planer (which are required for that technique, even though he doesn't show them), you might as well buy a tablesaw and save yourself a whole bunch of time.  He is selling a false hope when he says you can buy perfectly square stock and sharpen a $15 chisel and get good results.  

Look, I don't subscribe to all of Sellers methods, but I think he's sharing valuable information.   I bought his book, and it's a good book that goes into a lot of detail with nice color pictures.   

And you most certainly can make stock square without power tools... people have been doing it for thousands of years.   And Sellers has videos on that as well.

Is it unrealistic?   I don't know.   I think though that maybe it depends on your expectations.   At least he's not out there promoting making crap furniture out of pallets.

And here's his video on making stock square...

 

 

 

 

[Marmotjr]

16 minutes ago, Eric. said:

A Domino is about the size of a chisel roll.

But then you also have the systainer with all the doodads that come with the domino, the systainer that has all the dominoes themselves, and the vac to suck up all the dust.   And a cord, which usually means an extension cord.     But it's situational, there is no "one tool does it all" out there. 

[jjongsma]

32 minutes ago, Minnesota Steve said:

And you most certainly can make stock square without power tools... people have been doing it for thousands of years.   And Sellers has videos on that as well

You can. And this is in fact how I mill all of my stock. It's very close to perfectly parallel, but it's difficult to get perfect. And if I'm doing multiple boards, they may be just slightly different thicknesses (which you can flush up after they're assembled, etc). As long as you keep in mind which face is the reference face, it's good enough for almost everything. But it probably won't be quite as perfectly parallel and thicknessed as a machine. So I'd be a little hesitant to use this method for mortising with my hand-planed boards, since the method requires the boards to all be exactly the same width with perfectly parallel faces.

[Eric.]

2 minutes ago, Marmotjr said:

But then you also have the systainer with all the doodads that come with the domino, the systainer that has all the dominoes themselves, and the vac to suck up all the dust.   And a cord, which usually means an extension cord.     But it's situational, there is no "one tool does it all" out there. 

 

If you don't have the space for a systainer and a shop-vac...it might be time to move out of the closet you're working in.

The only problem with the Domino is the cost.  But when it comes to doing M&T joints quickly and precisely, there is no equal.

I don't begrudge anyone the enjoyment of hand-cutting mortises and tenons if that's what they wanna do.  But let's not get all delusional about it and say that it's ever faster or more precise than using the array of machines available as alternatives.  I can't remember ever having "one" M&T to make.  It's always at least two and usually four or more.  By the time that you scribe your lines I'll be putting my Domino back in the systainer and cracking a beer.

[drzaius]

2 hours ago, Eric. said:

Not if you have a Domino.

I'm sure that's true of M&T joints, but I was referring more to woodworking in general.

[Eric.]

22 minutes ago, drzaius said:

woodworking in general.

That's a big topic.

[SawDustB]

Sometimes you don't want all the dust and noise from the machines. There have been a few times recently where I knew my router was the fastest and most accurate method, but I didn't want it screaming at me and messing up the shop. It all depends on how much there is to do.

I'm a lot more likely to use hand tools with my kids around. It feels safer, and they're much happier.

[Wood Basher]

9 hours ago, Eric. said:

I just said it was a waste of time...didn't say some people don't enjoy it.

I guess it comes down to your philosophy of life. For me, time spent enjoying myself is time well spent, even if it is not productive. For you, I think, time has to be spent productively or it is wasted, even if it is enjoyable. Neither view is "right", they are just different.