Basement Project Journal

[pkinneb]

Hi all I have decided to journal my basement build well because I miss the forum and probably won't get back to the shop until after the 1st of the year and becuase I know there are some folks on here with construction and engineering back grounds that I would like to bounce a few things off. The build is pretty straight forward most of the framing was done but I have added a few walls and moved a couple things. this entire space is primarily a rec space. There will be a workout room, a home theater, a bar, big rec room, and utility room.

So here is the basic layout most of the framing is complete (except the theater) and wiring has begun.

Rec room

Bar with 1/2 bath to the left

Hallway next to bar and theater

Looking into workout room from hallway

This window will be removed from the theater room

Ohh and here are a couple shots where I am getting a feel for riser height and distance from the projector screen...My wife was laughing at me when I did this 

Working on electric. These rolling scaffolds work great running wires in the ceiling because you can just pull yourself along.

So here is my first question for the group. In the diagram below you will see how the walls/plastic are today what I am trying to determine is how to run the plastic in the future pic. I will still cover the block no changes there but do I need to run it up the room side of the new wall? If I do would I leave the plastic that is on the 2x6 wall as is? My concern is you will have insulation between two pieces of plastic and that just seems wrong to me, even though that's how it is done currently. Thoughts? FYI the faint red lines show where plastic is currently.

[Tpt life]

Yes, never insulate between two plastic sheets if there is any chance humidity will permeate the insulation. If it will not permeate the I insulation then there is no need for plastic, e.g. closed cell foam. 

[Chet]

Hey, were are the action shots of you at the county office pulling all those shiny new permits the other day? $$$

Looking forward to following this.

[Chestnut]

This looks like fun. I'm excited to follow along.

MG has this handout for basement finishing Not sure if it answers your insulation question but it's designed to MN code. Code vaires by region so what one person says is right for Ohio doesn't apply for Colorado or for texas.

https://www.maplegrovemn.gov/files/6314/2773/3779/BASEMENT_FINISHING.pdf

If you ever get in a pinch and need a 2nd hand let me know. I could get a shop tour at the same time.

[Minnesota Steve]

This looks very nice.   Our basement is fully underground with concrete walls, so technically it's already insulated on the exterior side with the water proofing.   I added some additional insulation by gluing 1" XPS foam to the walls, and sealing the joints with tape.

As far as sound proofing goes... About the only thing I did was stuff Roxul Safe & Sound into the ceilings.  About a 6" layer between the joists.   I primarily did this because upstairs it's a wood floor and you can hear the dogs walking around and such.   It helped a fair amount.   Really can't hear my home theater upstairs unless I have the door to the room open.

 

[pkinneb]

1 hour ago, Tpt life said:

Yes, never insulate between two plastic sheets if there is any chance humidity will permeate the insulation. If it will not permeate the I insulation then there is no need for plastic, e.g. closed cell foam. 

Yep that would be my understanding as well except my entire basement is done that way. I'll post up what the inspector has to say on that one

1 hour ago, Chet said:

Hey, were are the action shots of you at the county office pulling all those shiny new permits the other day? $$$

Looking forward to following this.

LOL I have to have the inspection done first scheduled for Monday. The good news is I can submit for it online

59 minutes ago, Chestnut said:

This looks like fun. I'm excited to follow along.

MG has this handout for basement finishing Not sure if it answers your insulation question but it's designed to MN code. Code vaires by region so what one person says is right for Ohio doesn't apply for Colorado or for texas.

https://www.maplegrovemn.gov/files/6314/2773/3779/BASEMENT_FINISHING.pdf

If you ever get in a pinch and need a 2nd hand let me know. I could get a shop tour at the same time.

Awesome I'll check it out. Thanks!

Careful I may take you up on that  

32 minutes ago, Minnesota Steve said:

This looks very nice.   Our basement is fully underground with concrete walls, so technically it's already insulated on the exterior side with the water proofing.   I added some additional insulation by gluing 1" XPS foam to the walls, and sealing the joints with tape.

As far as sound proofing goes... About the only thing I did was stuff Roxul Safe & Sound into the ceilings.  About a 6" layer between the joists.   I primarily did this because upstairs it's a wood floor and you can hear the dogs walking around and such.   It helped a fair amount.   Really can't hear my home theater upstairs unless I have the door to the room open.

 

Thanks! What did you use t glue the foam to the walls a PL type product?

That's good to know I plan on using Roxul in the rec area since our whole main level minus the master bedroom and office is hardwood. Were you able to find the Roxul safe n sound locally without special ordering it? I will be doing a full room within a room with decoupled ceiling and source and return mufflers to keep the noise from exiting the theater. It resides under the master closet and bathroom so I don't want to wake someone who gets up way earlier then me  

[drzaius]

This is gonna be fun. What are you doing about sound mitigation for the home theater? Now is the time to address that. There are some good home theater forums that offer all kinds of advice. I didn't do as much as I wish with mine, especially on the exterior walls. I'm just finishing up a 1000W sub-woofer build, so I'll have to limit my loud movie watching to the earlier hours so as not to bother the neighbors.

[sjeff70]

Here in Jefferson County, MO we have to have each contractor complete a Permit Card for approval before permit is granted.  It's a small split level so they are charging me $321 for the permit itself, based off $3,000 in material costs.  Some things I just couldn't do myself like setting the tub in mortar, etc... currently my building permit is being reviewed for approval, as my overall plan was submitted about a month ago.

Just to add to what MS said, I'd spray foam in between the first joist bay where the sill plate is.  2" XPS on the bare foundation wall provides a thermal break so vapor barrier isn't recommended.  I'm going with Rockwool too and using Lowe's or Home Depot as I cannot find it locally.

I'll be following along and learning as well. 

[pkinneb]

26 minutes ago, drzaius said:

This is gonna be fun. What are you doing about sound mitigation for the home theater? Now is the time to address that. There are some good home theater forums that offer all kinds of advice. I didn't do as much as I wish with mine, especially on the exterior walls. I'm just finishing up a 1000W sub-woofer build, so I'll have to limit my loud movie watching to the earlier hours so as not to bother the neighbors.

Thanks. Full decoupled walls (wall inside a wall) with IB-3 brackets. The ceiling will be IB clips and channel. All surfaces will be either 5/8" OSB/ Green Glue/5/8" sheet rock or 2 layers of sheet rock. Still haven't decided I think it would be nice to have the OSB to screw things like side pillars too but I have read that hanging the OSB is a pain. I will also use use either joist or soffit mufflers for the HVAC. I plan to make a custom door that incorporates sound proofing but will look, on the exterior of the theater, like the rest of the oak doors in the house. 1000W HOLY CRAP LOL

I've been devouring info over on the AVSforum which has been very helpful. I know construction and woodworking but the soundproofing has been new for me having fun learning about it though. Like most things it won't be perfect but hoping to end with a solid room when done. 

24 minutes ago, sjeff70 said:

Here in Jefferson County, MO we have to have each contractor complete a Permit Card for approval before permit is granted.  It's a small split level so they are charging me $321 for the permit itself, based off $3,000 in material costs.  Some things I just couldn't do myself like setting the tub in mortar, etc... currently my building permit is being reviewed for approval, as my overall plan was submitted about a month ago.

Just to add to what MS said, I'd spray foam in between the first joist bay where the sill plate is.  2" XPS on the bare foundation wall provides a thermal break so vapor barrier isn't recommended.  I'm going with Rockwool too and using Lowe's or Home Depot as I cannot find it locally.

I'll be following along and learning as well. 

Thanks for the info. Were you able to find Roxul stocked locally or special order? HD here requires special order and you have to buy a pallet at a time. I will need more than one pallet but probably not much of a second one given the cost I would like to be able to source it locally without the special order if possible.

So XPS can be glued to to the block/cement wall and negates the need for further vapor barrier? That is probably the route I will go. What do you use for the adhesive pl 200 or 400? or is there something more specialized?

[sjeff70]

1 hour ago, pkinneb said:

Thanks for the info. Were you able to find Roxul stocked locally or special order? HD here requires special order and you have to buy a pallet at a time. I will need more than one pallet but probably not much of a second one given the cost I would like to be able to source it locally without the special order if possible.

So XPS can be glued to to the block/cement wall and negates the need for further vapor barrier? That is probably the route I will go. What do you use for the adhesive pl 200 or 400? or is there something more specialized?

HD told me the same thing; I could not source the stuff anywhere locally.  Local code may require a vapor barrier just because they're behind in the science but in my case they did not require it.  They did however require I use green board, minimum, to back the tub/shower even thought I'm using the Kerdi waterproof membrane which does not require/recommend it. 

Use the PL300 that's meant for 'foamboard'. 

[Minnesota Steve]

1 hour ago, pkinneb said:

Thanks! What did you use t glue the foam to the walls a PL type product?

That's good to know I plan on using Roxul in the rec area since our whole main level minus the master bedroom and office is hardwood. Were you able to find the Roxul safe n sound locally without special ordering it? I will be doing a full room within a room with decoupled ceiling and source and return mufflers to keep the noise from exiting the theater. It resides under the master closet and bathroom so I don't want to wake someone who gets up way earlier then me  

Used Loctite PL300 foamboard adhesive.   I bought it at Menards.   Takes a full tube per 4x8 sheet as you do a bead around the entire outside, and then zig zag across the middle.

As far as the Roxul, I was able to find it at Home Depot.   I just checked the website and they no longer list Roxul, but they have a Owens Corning product called Fire & Sound which appears similar.   It was really easy to cut(buy the insulation knife thing at the store) and install.   In my case I had put fir strips across my ceiling as the trusses weren't flat so those helped hold them up there.   Otherwise they sell bundles of metal wires to use to keep the insulation up between the trusses.

Oh, and I don't care how wonderful mineral wool is... it's still itchy... maybe not as bad as fiberglass, but I work long sleeves, gloves and a broad rimmed hat to keep it off me.

I also used it for fireblock.   So like everywhere you have a drop down bulkhead.   Or in my case I had to fill a cavity where I'd had to build a wall out 6" to go around plumbing drain pipe, and along the staircase wall as the ceiling was dropped down around some pipes.

 

[sjeff70]

39 minutes ago, Minnesota Steve said:

Used Loctite PL300 foamboard adhesive.   I bought it at Menards.   Takes a full tube per 4x8 sheet as you do a bead around the entire outside, and then zig zag across the middle.

As far as the Roxul, I was able to find it at Home Depot.   I just checked the website and they no longer list Roxul, but they have a Owens Corning product called Fire & Sound which appears similar.   It was really easy to cut(buy the insulation knife thing at the store) and install.   In my case I had put fir strips across my ceiling as the trusses weren't flat so those helped hold them up there.   Otherwise they sell bundles of metal wires to use to keep the insulation up between the trusses.

Oh, and I don't care how wonderful mineral wool is... it's still itchy... maybe not as bad as fiberglass, but I work long sleeves, gloves and a broad rimmed hat to keep it off me.

I also used it for fireblock.   So like everywhere you have a drop down bulkhead.   Or in my case I had to fill a cavity where I'd had to build a wall out 6" to go around plumbing drain pipe, and along the staircase wall as the ceiling was dropped down around some pipes.

 

I did some research on that stuff and I think it's a mineral wool insulation as opposed to a stone wool insulation.  There's no R-rating on it yet which is no big deal but it supposedly breaks apart more easily and is heavy in VOCs. 

You know if HD is carrying a product they are doing it for their profit. There's no reason they can't carry the real thing.

[Minnesota Steve]

25 minutes ago, sjeff70 said:

I did some research on that stuff and I think it's a mineral wool insulation as opposed to a stone wool insulation.  There's no R-rating on it yet which is no big deal but it supposedly breaks apart more easily and is heavy in VOCs.  You get what you pay for?

You know if HD is carrying a product they are doing it for their profit. There's no reason they can't carry the real thing.

Yeah, one of the things I find extremely frustrating any more is how these stores will just willy nilly swap out products.   They'll offer something for maybe a year, then you can't find it when you go back.   Very frustrating.

I really don't know if those products are very different.   That'd have to be researched.

[drzaius]

5 hours ago, pkinneb said:

Thanks. Full decoupled walls (wall inside a wall) with IB-3 brackets. The ceiling will be IB clips and channel. All surfaces will be either 5/8" OSB/ Green Glue/5/8" sheet rock or 2 layers of sheet rock. Still haven't decided I think it would be nice to have the OSB to screw things like side pillars too but I have read that hanging the OSB is a pain. I will also use use either joist or soffit mufflers for the HVAC. I plan to make a custom door that incorporates sound proofing but will look, on the exterior of the theater, like the rest of the oak doors in the house. 1000W HOLY CRAP LOL

I've been devouring info over on the AVSforum which has been very helpful. I know construction and woodworking but the soundproofing has been new for me having fun learning about it though. Like most things it won't be perfect but hoping to end with a solid room when done. 

Looks like you've done your homework & have things well in hand. Whatever you do, don't spend any time in the DIY Speakers section; it's a serious rabbit hole  The sub I'm just finishing is 2' x 2'x 7' tall & weight about 350 lbs. And I think I might need more...

[drzaius]

Oh, I meant to add that the Green Glue is the real deal. I built a room for my collector & compressor in the basement & used it on the interior walls & ceiling, but not the wall adjoining the garage/shop (wasn't too concerned about that wall). When you knock on the 2 walls there is huge difference. The walls with GG are just dead & flat sounding, while the garage wall is much noisier.

The interior walls are built thusly:

- 2 layers of 5/8" fire rated gypsum board with GG between - 2.5" steel studs with 3" Roxul Safe-n-Sound batts - 1" dead air space - 2.5" steel studs with 3" Roxul Safe-n-Sound batts - 2.5" steel studs with 3" Roxul Safe-n-Sound batts.

The door opening has 2 insulated steel exterior doors, each with a layer of 3/4" MDF & GG secured to it and 2 additional sets of weather stripping. 

The isolation is very good. With the 5HP blower running, I have to get my ear within 6" of the door to hear it. The compressor is worse, but not objectionable at all. It's a horrendously noisy SOB.

[pkinneb]

19 hours ago, drzaius said:

Oh, I meant to add that the Green Glue is the real deal. I built a room for my collector & compressor in the basement & used it on the interior walls & ceiling, but not the wall adjoining the garage/shop (wasn't too concerned about that wall). When you knock on the 2 walls there is huge difference. The walls with GG are just dead & flat sounding, while the garage wall is much noisier.

The interior walls are built thusly:

- 2 layers of 5/8" fire rated gypsum board with GG between - 2.5" steel studs with 3" Roxul Safe-n-Sound batts - 1" dead air space - 2.5" steel studs with 3" Roxul Safe-n-Sound batts - 2.5" steel studs with 3" Roxul Safe-n-Sound batts.

The door opening has 2 insulated steel exterior doors, each with a layer of 3/4" MDF & GG secured to it and 2 additional sets of weather stripping. 

The isolation is very good. With the 5HP blower running, I have to get my ear within 6" of the door to hear it. The compressor is worse, but not objectionable at all. It's a horrendously noisy SOB.

Nice!! Good to know.

[pkinneb]

Not much new today just more wiring...

Seven down 15 more to go, These new (to me) connectors are nice to work with especially in the tight space of the soffit

Almost 500' of 14-2 down and I will need one more 250' roll. then probably 500' of 12-2 but those are mostly straight shots with a few outlets on them so that will go quicker.

...and when I finish that... yeah more wiring 

[Coop]

This will be a neat thread to follow ! I saw my first basement that you can walk out of last week riding along with Spanky in Tennessee. I thought all were holes that were dug, not thinking of them built into a hill. 

[Chestnut]

31 minutes ago, K Cooper said:

This will be a neat thread to follow ! I saw my first basement that you can walk out of last week riding along with Spanky in Tennessee. I thought all were holes that were dug, not thinking of them built into a hill. 

My friend's basement is at the same level as his garage, and you access the garage through the basement ... wrap your mind around that.

My uncle has a garage with a shop in the garage's basement and that shop has a garage door....

Hills make cool things possible.

[Coop]

Just when I thought I understood! A hill in Houston is an overpass and then you’re not guaranteed to flood. 

[Chestnut]

I've been to houston it reminds me a lot of eastern ND flat as hell and floods at least once a year.

[Coop]

We buy flood insurance and get to remodel every 6-8 years . Not too many people get to do that. Houston is a great city with oil and restaurants and culture ( so says my wife) and a s*#t pile full of great folks! 

[wtnhighlander]

Coop, you should go a little farther East. The vacation 'cabins' we like to stay in at Pigeon Forge have a 'basement' that is still the second floor above ground, and entry level parking is another floor above that. 

If those cabins were by the seaside, they'd be lighthouses. As they are, the 3rd floor is the 'walk-out'.

[pkinneb]

14 hours ago, K Cooper said:

We buy flood insurance and get to remodel every 6-8 years . Not too many people get to do that. Houston is a great city with oil and restaurants and culture ( so says my wife) and a s*#t pile full of great folks! 

I‘ve only been to Houston a couple times for work but can say I agree great food and people both times.

[pkinneb]

Well the last two weeks have been spent...you guessed installing more wiring. Everything but the Bathroom and theater are now fully wired.  

I also had to move the bathroom wall becuase someone miss measured  This meant I had to rework the curved bar fronts as well but that's all complete now and as much as it sucked I'm really glad I noticed it prior to moving on since the toilet location wouldn't have passed code  

So here is the 4" fix

This required fix meant I either had to remake the curves or shorten them and move them inside the walls, I did the later. This meant we lost about 4" behind the bar but in the end it will work fine and was much simpler than remaking them. I actually think I like this better.

I also found a great find on CL. I was looking for an equipment rack for the theater and had decided on a Sanus 27u rack $749 when this never used one came up for sale on CL. $360 later I have our rack

I also finished the basic layout of the theater so I can start framing the decoupled walls and then get it wired. This has taken waaay more research than expected but I am happy with the general direction and now can proceed. The open box on the left of the room is for the equipment rack just need to determine the best way to soundproof that which is why it looks like its open to the hall way which it won't be. 

Other notes: we received are septic certification, our electrical permit, and have submitted for the building permit should have that in the next week or so. 

Taking the next week off to drive around lake superior on what we hope is a really nice fall color trip