Are Woodworking Forums Dead

[Cochese]

3 hours ago, thewoodwhisperer said:

This is about to be my life in a few weeks, lol. Almost like you knew that!

You haven't lived until you work out of a bedroom.

[Immortan D]

1 hour ago, Cliff said:

I wonder if Azure cloud would be better or worse in this situation. I've thought of moving all my different sites there to consolidate. Lot of good features, but since MS charges $0.xx per cpu second you use, could be more expensive, or cheape

Moving from LAMP to Microsoft will NEVER be cheaper...

[CraigW]

I would hate to see this place disappear, I am a relatively new woodworker (only really got started last year) and I only really lurk here as I don't feel that I have a lot to contribute (yet), but I learn an awful lot and from the info I get here I have been able to make good informed choices about tool purchases and where to start as a beginner.

Youtube has it's place and I do watch videos from certain content producers, but being able to ask for specific advice (like "how did I screw this up?") give a forum a huge advantage, and as Marc mentioned being able to trawl the history of a forum is far better than Facebook. In fact, I have found the answers to most of the questions I have had by using the search function instead of bothering you fine folk

[thewoodwhisperer]

Exactly right, their cloud service is basically a form of managed hosting, catering to their own piece of software. The problems arise for us here when updates come down or errors spring up. It's harder to get their help when you're self-hosted and things just seem to go wrong more often. 

1 hour ago, drzaius said:

I'm kinda shocked that there are that few suporters. I wish more people realized what a bargain the $20/year is. How much is it advertised?

It's now advertised with a static ad at the top right of the forum home page. I try not to hit people over the head with it. I also put up a post once in a while in the general forum about supporting the forum. 

As for their cloud service, it's basically a form of managed hosting, catering to their own piece of software. The problems arise for us here when updates come down or errors spring up. It's harder to get their help when you're self-hosted and things just seem to go wrong more often. 

[prov163]

First of all, I love this forum. The amount of growth in my woodworking ability is definitely increased by my participation here. Being able to get great advice from such a diverse group of woodworkers, not to mention the inspiration to try new techniques and projects is way beyond any other forum I've been involved with. 

Second, I became a supporter of this forum and the WoodTalk show not to get the cool badge or jus because of the benefits I receive from being part of the group.  I believe in supporting small businesses that are doing good work. Marc and Nicole are providing excellent content and I'm willing to invest in helping them be successful. My paltry donations don't make a huge impact alone but combined with others, it helps. 

Third, THANKS to all of you who have helped me with suggestions, advice, and "just do it" encouragement. I sincerely appreciate it!!!

[..Kev]

8 minutes ago, thewoodwhisperer said:

It's now advertised with a static ad at the top right of the forum home page. I try not to hit people over the head with it. I also put up a post once in a while in the general forum about supporting the forum. 

Maybe we need a "break even" meter where the add is to prompt people to donate when we're falling short?

[prov163]

1 minute ago, TIODS said:

Maybe we need a "break even" meter where the add is to prompt people to donate when we're falling short?

Instead of using the old thermometer graphic so many do, we could have a glue bottle that fills up the more support the forum gets LOL. 

[Cliff]

35 minutes ago, Immortan D said:

Moving from LAMP to Microsoft will NEVER be cheaper...

Says who? .Net Core has been decoupled from the MS operating system. A good majority of MS products and tech is now open source. They worked for years and years on this stuff. You don't need a SQL license to run .net either. Create a good database abstraction layer (which any programmer with more than a couple of years experience is doing anyway) and you can swap in whatever db you want - as you feel like it. Don't think MySQL is beefy enough? PostGreSQL still exists. MariaDB? Good enough for Google. Even with SQL licensing, unless you are sitting on a dedicated box and dropping 20k on a license per environment, you can go with a service such as go daddy - pay $9.99/month and you get one free MSSQL database and unlimited mysql db's. 

I'm not going to say i'm unbiased, as .net is absolutely what I do for a living, but I don't think the cost difference is significant nowadays. I have hosting in both LAMP (bluehost) and .net (GoDaddy) and the price is roughly the same. Only reason I pay less for LAMP is because I got on the phone and told them it's BS that I've been with them for 12 years and they give new customers the $3/month price but not me. So they gave me $3/month as long as I paid for 3 years in advance hah. 

LAMP and .net are not the only technologies either. A majority of the job postings I get contacted for are NodeJS, Backbone, KnockoutJS, angular - though by far .net is the most in demand. Not that jobs necessarily dictate how someone should pick their hosting service..  

[Immortan D]

Cliff we are talking about running existing forum software here, not some custom solution that needs developers. I don't think Marc is remotely interested in developing his own forum software.

[thewoodwhisperer]

10 minutes ago, Immortan D said:

Cliff we are talking about running existing forum software here, not some custom solution that needs developers. I don't think Marc is remotely interested in developing his own forum software.

Truer words have never been spoken.

57 minutes ago, TIODS said:

Maybe we need a "break even" meter where the add is to prompt people to donate when we're falling short?

Well now that we've moved, the costs are much lower. A periodic license fee, an SSL cert, and paying someone for their time when things go beyond my abilities. The money the forum does make should more than cover that. 

[Dknapp34]

I can't really add anything beyond the great comments others have already posted about the value of this forum, but I did want to let it be known that the picture of Marc's lips is really disturbing and makes me feel weird.

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[Cliff]

17 minutes ago, Immortan D said:

Cliff we are talking about running existing forum software here, not some custom solution that needs developers. I don't think Marc is remotely interested in developing his own forum software.

Where did I indicate anyone is writing custom software? Even php based forums running on mysql and apache can run on windows. Nothing I really said in my previous post had anything to do with this forum software, it was only a response to the idea that LAMP will always be cheaper than MS. This is no longer a true statement. Or at least it's not always true. 

I'm not telling Marc to start developing his own forum software, though if he does I think he should do it in LOLCode. 

8 minutes ago, Dknapp34 said:

I can't really add anything beyond the great comments others have already posted about the value of this forum, but I did want to let it be known that the picture of Marc's lips is really disturbing and makes me feel weird.

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WEIRD "weird" or NICE! "weird?"

[Immortan D]

14 minutes ago, Cliff said:

Where did I indicate anyone is writing custom software? Even php based forums running on mysql and apache can run on windows. Nothing I really said in my previous post had anything to do with this forum software, it was only a response to the idea that LAMP will always be cheaper than MS. This is no longer a true statement. Or at least it's not always true. 

I'm not telling Marc to start developing his own forum software, though if he does I think he should do it in LOLCode. 

 

We were talking about reducing forum costs... Other than that, honestly, I find the discussion boring, sorry.

[Beechwood Chip]

47 minutes ago, thewoodwhisperer said:

Well now that we've moved, the costs are much lower. A periodic license fee, an SSL cert, and paying someone for their time when things go beyond my abilities. The money the forum does make should more than cover that. 

Only if you don't count the value of your time.

I've changed my signature.

[rodger.]

I have been a member of this forum for a while, and it is my absolute favourite place to go online!  I have belonged to other forum boards in the past, but this forum is really my only "active membership".

This forum is filled with like minded, helpful people.  I would be very sad if something were to happen and this forum ceased to be.

Besides the plethora of information available here, I have been heavily influenced by the wonderful projects and ideas presented here.  I also love the unrestrained sharing of information - if someone has a better way to do something, they will share it and not horde their idea!

Thanks to all the great members here - you make this a fun place to check out everyday!

 

 

 

[wtnhighlander]

... the picture of Marc's lips is really disturbing and makes me feel weird.

Ok, NOW truer words HAVE been spoken!

[thewoodwhisperer]

I don't even know what you guys are talking about!

 

[Ronn W]

The quality of the people and the input will keep the good forums alive.  And this is one of those forums.  I am one of the least "connected' people I know.  Outside of watching an occasional You Tube video this forum is my online presence.  I don't even do Facebook.

Thanks to all of you and especially to the moderators who help keep things from straying too far and who maintain the quality.

[JosephThomas]

I am just glad all this is being talked about, I mean, aside from Cliff's little rant about .net

Before this week I just assumed the forum worked something like this:  low hosting costs like most website today, little upkeep aside from what the mods do (not small but still "free"), and a steady stream of ad revenue from the thousands of visitors each day that probably more than paid for the low costs.

Now that I understand how different reality is, I'd be more than willing to try and fit the support $ into the budget going forward.  I guess I just assumed the forum was doing well since there are so many dedicated people on here everyday plus a steady stream of newcomers.  

p.s. please no comments about my 'budget'. I run a tight ship, every $2 is accounted for. I might have to find a way to skip a couple grits during sanding next month  

[Dknapp34]

9 hours ago, Cliff said:

WEIRD "weird" or NICE! "weird?"

It's a weird combination of weird weird and nice weird.  Definitely weird. 

 

[prov163]

10 hours ago, thewoodwhisperer said:

I don't even know what you guys are talking about!

 

Yeah!  My computer experience goes back to keypunch, but these discussions about SQL, LAMP and SSL are like Swahili.  Back to woodworking please 

[Pwk5017]

Agreed with a lot of what everyone said. Glad this thread was started, because i watched that brief snippet of the live show and I was slightly outraged when the takeaway was "forums are dying or dead". I dont even know what a facebook group is, and i am 28! Facebook was cool when i started college and you needed a .edu account to join the site. Now, it is mostly full of old people and it is lame. Just my take away as a millennial. I know how popular it is, so dont beat me over the head with FB traffic statistics. This forum on the other hand? This forum smells of rich mahogany and leather bound books where learned men can discuss things of importance. I love forums, always have. GameFAQs? That place was awesome when i was a teen. It probably still is awesome. There used to be a fantastic bonsai forum, but it shut down and all the other replacements pale in comparison. All the content went with it, which made it akin to the library of Alexandria burning. I still miss that old one. Now, I have woodworking forums. Lumberjocks has traffic, but the name is uncanny in describing the type that participate there. If they could find a way to play Springsteen's 'Glory Days' on loop while browsing the site, it would be even better. Sawmill is nice for a more professional view on things, and woodweb is sometimes too professional for my tastes. Like Goldilocks, Woodtalk is jusssssssttt right. If all people had were youtubers/instagram, it would be a crying shame. No offense to the content producers out there, but I dont know any of them to have 50 years experience like Steve, or don, or hhh. Without forums, these valuable participants' knowledge would be lost. It takes a certain amount of...umm, "attention seeking"? to video tape yourself speaking and publicly share it with the world. That probably came out wrong, but some guys want to contribute without the personal attention. I find these people to be more valuable than the jay bates, steve ramsey, countless others on youtube. Sure, some of the youtubers have some entertainment value, but i really do not glean much educational value. Even when I watch videos of guys reviewing tools, i have to take everything with more than a grain of salt, because 9/10 times that guy was given the item/paid to promote it. Not the case on forums. Exception to this is Paul Marcel, he is the man. Ive also found Marc's reviews to cut the crap on most tool reviews; however, where do i go when i want to discuss shaper tooling? Which youtuber handles that niche? Or to discuss the benefits of a tersa cutterhead versus felder's silent cutterhead versus byrd's, and on and on and on. How many youtube producers have touched a piece of SCMI, Martin, Felder, or Minimax equipment? Most, if not all, started woodworking, thought it might be fun to throw some videos up on basic concepts, received some views, and kept going from there. They arent woodworking professionals, they are entertainment professionals. So if forums die, then we are left with entertainers educating the masses on woodworking. Marc is the exception to my generalizations, and is why i pay to see/listen to what he does and says. If Marc wasnt investing in education with David Marks, William Ng, or other teachers, im not sure i would own as many guild projects as I do. 

 

For the record, I also discovered the guild through this forum. Discovered the podcast through this forum as well. I think it reaches more customers than you think, Marc. Im not your head of marketing though, and I could be wrong. 

 

Patrick

[Pwk5017]

30 minutes ago, Mike. said:

patrick I agree with everything you said (I think) but have you been day drinking or taking speed? Holy cow that is a rant! 

hahaha not day drunk, just written over the course of an hour or so with a lunch break disjointing the session. Im at the office, which inherently makes me one step from a serious rant on the best of days. In all honesty, the youtube scene is something worthy of a rant. It is so dumb how these rank novices make a video and 18 months later most proclaim themselves as end all be all experts. The worst part is they truly believe they are experts because they get 30k views on their videos. In reality, most are spitting out the same regurgitated information that they heard/read from another source with their sawstop behind them. I dont find much new information being distributed by that scene. Instead, it is the same information chewed up and spit out 100 times over. Go through the journal/showcase sections here and you will see more talent and knowledge than 90% of youtube. I havent youtubed wwing videos in a year or two, but i do appreciate frank's videos for their entertainment value. He has his own style, and the focus is clearly on the videography and not woodworking. He doesnt hit you over the head repeatedly with a dozen plugs, or "if you like what you see, click the subscribe button". Why I like Frank and dislike the rest of the lot come down to one thing, being genuine. I view the majority of the wwing youtube crowd as mildly disingenuous, which upsets me enough that i rant about it on a forum  : )

 

Despite my last two tin foil posts, im interested in people building a community to problem solve, share knowledge, and help each other grow. I hope current and future participants are more interested in the aforementioned concepts compared to another rehashed video on making a sheet good cart.

[BonPacific]

2 minutes ago, Pwk5017 said:

...

In all honesty, the youtube scene is something worthy of a rant. It is so dumb how these rank novices make a video and 18 months later most proclaim themselves as end all be all experts. The worst part is they truly believe they are experts because they get 30k views on their videos. In reality, most are spitting out the same regurgitated information that they heard/read from another source with their sawstop behind them. I dont find much new information being distributed by that scene. Instead, it is the same information chewed up and spit out 100 times over.

...

I do have to take exception here. Steve, Jay, April, Matt, Jimmy DiResta... Over and over again I've heard them all state that they don't consider themselves experts, and are only sharing their opinions/experience or "one way of doing things". I haven't noticed anyone saying theirs is the "only way". They are providing free content, both educational and entertaining. I learned how to sharpen better from watching Matt Cremona, and how to restore a hand plane from Paul Sellers, though he does get closer to the "only way" type of content.

[shaneymack]

I am not a part of anything else online except this forum. Never done Myspace, Facebook , Twitter, Instagram and all the other online crap. I am a member on three other online forums (FOG, Contractortalk and Archerytalk) but don't even really post there. Kinda feel like I'm cheating on WTO when i post elsewhere. I'm too loyal lol....or weird. Probably both.

Anyways, this place is my online 'home'. If I have my smartphone in my hand it's not because I'm texting (cause I don't really do that either) I'm on WTO.

This place really is full of awesome people. I can't stand the douchbag tough guys that are such jerks to people for no reason on other sites. That doesn't really happen here. People are always welcomed and treated with respect. Unless of course their first post is a video or a question about painted rustic furniture. I kid, i kid. They are still welcome but we might bust their chops a bit.

It is a really weird thing to consider guys I've only ever talked to online as friends but weird as it sounds, I do consider a lot of you on here as such. And on that note, hopefully we can all meet up at a woodworking show or some event in the future.

If this place went away, I'd shed a tear. Then I'd ask @Tom Cancelleri to start a new forum for us

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