Are Woodworking Forums Dead

[thewoodwhisperer]

52 minutes ago, BonPacific said:

I do have to take exception here. Steve, Jay, April, Matt, Jimmy DiResta... Over and over again I've heard them all state that they don't consider themselves experts, and are only sharing their opinions/experience or "one way of doing things". I haven't noticed anyone saying theirs is the "only way". They are providing free content, both educational and entertaining. I learned how to sharpen better from watching Matt Cremona, and how to restore a hand plane from Paul Sellers, though he does get closer to the "only way" type of content.

I would imagine some folks do buy their own line of crap and fall victim to thinking they are an expert. But I'd guess that most of them are simply having fun and enjoying their channel's success. And think about it, it's all about perception. If a person speaks confidently and presents a technique, the average person will perceive them as an expert. Given the fact that YouTube represents a much more general audience, the lionshare of viewers probably do know less than the presenter. Expert or not, you only need to know one thing more than your audience in order to teach them something. So even the people who don't proclaim expert status and don't respond to inquiries indignantly, may find themselves being perceived as experts. 

I would guess that there are many people out there who see me as some sort of expert. There are also people out there who probably think, "Can you believe this guy is selling himself as an expert?!" And both groups are completely wrong. Even though I've written a book and I sell expensive detailed project tutorials, I have never (and will never) claim to be an expert at anything. But I do know more about woodworking than my average viewer and convey information in a way people can relate to. Hence the success of TWW. But I just can't help how people perceive the situation, right or wrong. 

So when you're thinking about these various YouTube personalities, think about whether you're judging them based on general perception or if they truly are trying to sell themselves as an expert. 

[Tpt life]

I see this at school all the time. This comes from basing your value on a comparison to others. Those who rely heavily on comparison to others are offended when someone says "Pshaw! I would never do it that way." Rather than responding "Oh, there is more than one way to do this" they say "Gosh, that guy is arrogant." You all can travel down the flip side in your minds. I think that is where this forum tends to find its home. The prevailing mod process let's all express, but tries to keep expression to a few posts rather than endless jockeying. I think the off topic and even Hijack locations also provide a steam release for the forum to breathe and be responsive to culture. Many forums lose balance and either are rigid or too loose with allowable content. Many thanks for avoiding those extremes. 

[Andy Wright]

I think the forum question is interesting because different people have different ways of viewing the world. Overall, I think that forums are dying - they are not generally a profitable enterprise which means that many forums are poorly managed and not very useful. I am somewhat active on this forum and a supporter and this is the only forum I frequent and I believe that Woodtalk is one of the better forums I have seen. In terms of rank on how much of my "woodworking related" internet time gets spent I would put youtube first, podcasts second, and then its a tossup between this forum and social media (including the Woodwhisperer Facebook group which is a nice resource)

[BonPacific]

59 minutes ago, thewoodwhisperer said:

I would imagine some folks do buy their own line of crap and fall victim to thinking they are an expert. But I'd guess that most of them are simply having fun and enjoying their channel's success. And think about it, it's all about perception. If a person speaks confidently and presents a technique, the average person will perceive them as an expert. Given the fact that YouTube represents a much more general audience, the lionshare of viewers probably do know less than the presenter. Expert or not, you only need to know one thing more than your audience in order to teach them something. So even the people who don't proclaim expert status and don't respond to inquiries indignantly, may find themselves being perceived as experts. 

I would guess that there are many people out there who see me as some sort of expert. There are also people out there who probably think, "Can you believe this guy is selling himself as an expert?!" And both groups are completely wrong. Even though I've written a book and I sell expensive detailed project tutorials, I have never (and will never) claim to be an expert at anything. But I do know more about woodworking than my average viewer and convey information in a way people can relate to. Hence the success of TWW. But I just can't help how people perceive the situation, right or wrong. 

So when you're thinking about these various YouTube personalities, think about whether you're judging them based on general perception or if they truly are trying to sell themselves as an expert. 

This is a great point. The one-sided nature of YouTube or Blogs leads to a very polarized reaction. Someone in a position of power (if not authority) putting something out into the world, with comments allowing response but not necessarily interaction. Forums on the other hand are a much more egalitarian medium. Authority/Influence is earned by interaction, not just by the medium itself.

Both of course have their issues, but it's interesting to think about the inherent power imbalance. The same thing happens on most Social Media. Technically everyone can post and respond. But the first post is given a much greater weight in the user interface, and appears differently to the world. The first post in a forum discussion doesn't even show up when the conversation moves onto page 4.

[Beechwood Chip]

Marc really got me started in woodworking (and I'm a guild member and supporter as well as a mod).  But I follow April and Steve as well.  For me, Marc's video's often make me think, "That's really cool, and someday when I have a couple more tools and more time, I'd love to make that!" That's where I learn new techniques, design approaches, etc.

But April and Steve's videos often make me think, "I could use one of those.  Why am I sitting here on the computer? I'll go downstairs, grab some scrap wood and make some sawdust." I'm not learning new techniques, I'm being reminded how easy it is to bang something out. They're not "experts", they are more like friends who know a little less than me but are a lot more motivated.  

Speaking of which, I need to grab some 3/4 ply and make some rolling tool stands.

[bradpotts]

I would imagine that there is a correlation between woodworking forums dying and the hobby itself. I have heard the debates about woodworking dying, but it is hard to believe when you belong to a community that eats and breaths this stuff. But on the flip side; with less shop classes, kids playing video games, big companies like ikea etc I think that it is an uphill battle. I started my journey in shop class than later watching David Marks on DIY. Without those two influences in my life I doubt that I would have ever been a woodworker. So long story short, I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 20 years they were all gone. There are very few people like Marc who would lose money on a part of their business just to help other people. For that I will always be grateful for this forum. I won't join another forum because character is huge.

[Byrdie]

I picked an interesting time to come back and take a look at the forum.  This is the first topic I came to and it's a good one.

Simplest point to make on the question of, "Are forums dead?" is this topic.  Forums are as alive or dead as their participants, and the number of responses to this topic alone are a good indicator of where WTO is headed.

I enjoy YouTube although far fewer of the videos I watch there are now woodworking related and more in line with other interests.  And I don't Facebook.  Not sure I ever will although the habits of some of my "friends" may eventually push me there.

When I first started on WTO I was much more active and a contributor.  I might've come the reverse route from many of you.  I was a big follower of several WWing blogs, one of them being TWW.  From there I learned of the WTO podcast and when I heard about the forum, I expected it to be an extension of the podcast.  One of the things I expected was that the members of the podcast would be participants here and, as a result, more easily reachable or able to connect to.  I am still somewhat disappointed that it's not the case but stayed because I quickly realized what the value of this forum is and that I could add value to it.

Recently, I haven't been as active but I still pop in from time to time and am pleased to see an active community is still alive.  There are a couple reasons I haven't been as frequent but probably the biggest is that I found myself spending so much time trying to keep up with the discussion that I wasn't getting much woodworking done.

As long as you all keep participating at the level you have on this discussion alone, I don't see much chance of this forum dying.  If that happens, what happens to other forums is of little consequence.

[Cliff]

22 hours ago, Immortan D said:

We were talking about reducing forum costs... Other than that, honestly, I find the discussion boring, sorry.

Well you are the one that brought it up with such absolute statements, man. The only thing that impacts cost of running a site is static ips, ssl certs, dedicated servers, level of support and bandwidth.  I'm not trying to poke at your (or bore you) but if you are going to declare something like that you should anticipate a response. Moving on..

 

20 hours ago, JosephThomas said:

I am just glad all this is being talked about, I mean, aside from Cliff's little rant about .net

Before this week I just assumed the forum worked something like this:  low hosting costs like most website today, little upkeep aside from what the mods do (not small but still "free"), and a steady stream of ad revenue from the thousands of visitors each day that probably more than paid for the low costs.

Now that I understand how different reality is, I'd be more than willing to try and fit the support $ into the budget going forward.  I guess I just assumed the forum was doing well since there are so many dedicated people on here everyday plus a steady stream of newcomers.  

p.s. please no comments about my 'budget'. I run a tight ship, every $2 is accounted for. I might have to find a way to skip a couple grits during sanding next month  

That isn't a rant. That's like a summary of a rant. Then there is a manifesto. Manifesto's will have flowcharts and Enterprise Architect Framework Diagrams. 

Seriously though, I'm not shocked at the price and such that goes into the forum. I used to do custom programming on one that got 10,000,000 hits/month about 15 or so years ago and the site ended up getting sold to someone who knew how to monetize it (or not since it shut down a couple of years ago) because it was too much time and too much money. What DOES shock me is how much everyone must have to pay to host podcasts. I don't know the specifics of it but from the things that I hear it must be very expensive. I guess I always thought it would be nearly free to put one up.

[prov163]

Marc, I hope that the response to your video question shows you first how much you are respected. You present things in a way that makes someone say, "I can do that."  The highest form of teaching is the ability not to merely inform, but to inspire as well. I used to watch Steve Ramsey and am grateful there are guys like him out there. He was like a gateway. I did some of his projects but started wanting to step up my game.  That's why I'm here.   I respect your approach and your teaching ability. We all do. 

Second, this forum is an integral part of teaching the craft. It's like we're all in one big shop class with Eric as the principal - LOL. You, along with Shannon, Schwarz and the guys on this forum are my teachers.  In fact I just learned from Patrick that FB is infested with old geezers like me - LOL. While I can't speak for other forums, this one seems strong and vibrant. 

Just my .02. 

[JosephThomas]

53 minutes ago, prov163 said:

Marc, I hope that the response to your video question shows you first how much you are respected. You present things in a way that makes someone say, "I can do that."  The highest form of teaching is the ability not to merely inform, but to inspire as well. I used to watch Steve Ramsey and am grateful there are guys like him out there. He was like a gateway. I did some of his projects but started wanting to step up my game.  That's why I'm here.   I respect your approach and your teaching ability. We all do. 

Second, this forum is an integral part of teaching the craft. It's like we're all in one big shop class with Eric as the principal - LOL. You, along with Shannon, Schwarz and the guys on this forum are my teachers.  In fact I just learned from Patrick that FB is infested with old geezers like me - LOL. While I can't speak for other forums, this one seems strong and vibrant. 

Just my .02. 

Pretty sure Eric is the hall monitor.

[thewoodwhisperer]

1 hour ago, Cliff said:

What DOES shock me is how much everyone must have to pay to host podcasts. I don't know the specifics of it but from the things that I hear it must be very expensive. I guess I always thought it would be nearly free to put one up.

See now podcasts are a different beast. If you're doing an audio podcast, you can get a cheap economy plan for the website, install Wordpress (free), and be done with it for about $5. The audio files can be hosted for free at Archive.org and it's a done deal. Now if the show starts to become extremely popular and your website traffic starts to get up there, you might have to bump up your hosting plan. But most podcasts generally don't experience lots of website traffic. Their value is in the audio file itself. So overall, the costs of running a podcast are absolutely minimal (assuming you're not counting your time as an expense). This is why I find it just a little funny when new audio shows immediately start a Patreon campaign to cover their ongoing costs. Their  costs should be VERY little unless they are over-buying hosting for some reason. 

If you're doing something in video, it's pretty much the same deal. Only difference is you're uploading to YouTube and then embedding the YouTube video on your website. This kind of site might generate more traffic and would probably outgrow a $5/month hosting plan a little faster. But again, you'd have to generate quite a bit of traffic and if you're starting now, chances are most people are watching your stuff directly on YouTube anyway. 

This forum, on the other hand, is quite expensive. Not all forums are. But not all forums work as well as this one does. There's an initial license fee for each part of the forum including the main board, the gallery, the chat room, the store, the calendar, etc. Those licenses needs to be renewed every 6 months if you want to keep the software up to date. And SSL certificates can run in the hundreds every year or two depending on the term you purchase. This is all referring to self-hosted licensing. You can simply pay them $130/month and get everything including their hosting, which is what we've been doing up until a few days ago. So make no mistake about it, a podcast is a much less costly venture, and one that is much more likely to generate revenue.  

 

[JosephThomas]

1 minute ago, Mike. said:

More like the guy in the bathroom smoking cigarettes and teaching the freshman how not to be idiots. 

I thought he gave up the habit.

[Tpt life]

24 minutes ago, Mike. said:

More like the guy in the bathroom smoking weed and teaching the freshman how not to be idiots. 

FTFY

[whotookjobin]

9 hours ago, Pwk5017 said:

Agreed with a lot of what everyone said. Glad this thread was started, because i watched that brief snippet of the live show and I was slightly outraged when the takeaway was "forums are dying or dead". I dont even know what a facebook group is, and i am 28! Facebook was cool when i started college and you needed a .edu account to join the site. Now, it is mostly full of old people and it is lame. Just my take away as a millennial. I know how popular it is, so dont beat me over the head with FB traffic statistics. This forum on the other hand? This forum smells of rich mahogany and leather bound books where learned men can discuss things of importance. I love forums, always have. GameFAQs? That place was awesome when i was a teen. It probably still is awesome. There used to be a fantastic bonsai forum, but it shut down and all the other replacements pale in comparison. All the content went with it, which made it akin to the library of Alexandria burning. I still miss that old one. Now, I have woodworking forums. Lumberjocks has traffic, but the name is uncanny in describing the type that participate there. If they could find a way to play Springsteen's 'Glory Days' on loop while browsing the site, it would be even better. Sawmill is nice for a more professional view on things, and woodweb is sometimes too professional for my tastes. Like Goldilocks, Woodtalk is jusssssssttt right. If all people had were youtubers/instagram, it would be a crying shame. No offense to the content producers out there, but I dont know any of them to have 50 years experience like Steve, or don, or hhh. Without forums, these valuable participants' knowledge would be lost. It takes a certain amount of...umm, "attention seeking"? to video tape yourself speaking and publicly share it with the world. That probably came out wrong, but some guys want to contribute without the personal attention. I find these people to be more valuable than the jay bates, steve ramsey, countless others on youtube. Sure, some of the youtubers have some entertainment value, but i really do not glean much educational value. Even when I watch videos of guys reviewing tools, i have to take everything with more than a grain of salt, because 9/10 times that guy was given the item/paid to promote it. Not the case on forums. Exception to this is Paul Marcel, he is the man. Ive also found Marc's reviews to cut the crap on most tool reviews; however, where do i go when i want to discuss shaper tooling? Which youtuber handles that niche? Or to discuss the benefits of a tersa cutterhead versus felder's silent cutterhead versus byrd's, and on and on and on. How many youtube producers have touched a piece of SCMI, Martin, Felder, or Minimax equipment? Most, if not all, started woodworking, thought it might be fun to throw some videos up on basic concepts, received some views, and kept going from there. They arent woodworking professionals, they are entertainment professionals. So if forums die, then we are left with entertainers educating the masses on woodworking. Marc is the exception to my generalizations, and is why i pay to see/listen to what he does and says. If Marc wasnt investing in education with David Marks, William Ng, or other teachers, im not sure i would own as many guild projects as I do. 

 

For the record, I also discovered the guild through this forum. Discovered the podcast through this forum as well. I think it reaches more customers than you think, Marc. Im not your head of marketing though, and I could be wrong. 

 

Patrick

+1 everything said in this post, speed-induced or not

[PeteJr]

I will continue to prefer and use our forum. 

[Cliff]

23 hours ago, thewoodwhisperer said:

See now podcasts are a different beast. If you're doing an audio podcast, you can get a cheap economy plan for the website, install Wordpress (free), and be done with it for about $5. The audio files can be hosted for free at Archive.org and it's a done deal. Now if the show starts to become extremely popular and your website traffic starts to get up there, you might have to bump up your hosting plan. But most podcasts generally don't experience lots of website traffic. Their value is in the audio file itself. So overall, the costs of running a podcast are absolutely minimal (assuming you're not counting your time as an expense). This is why I find it just a little funny when new audio shows immediately start a Patreon campaign to cover their ongoing costs. Their  costs should be VERY little unless they are over-buying hosting for some reason. 

If you're doing something in video, it's pretty much the same deal. Only difference is you're uploading to YouTube and then embedding the YouTube video on your website. This kind of site might generate more traffic and would probably outgrow a $5/month hosting plan a little faster. But again, you'd have to generate quite a bit of traffic and if you're starting now, chances are most people are watching your stuff directly on YouTube anyway. 

This forum, on the other hand, is quite expensive. Not all forums are. But not all forums work as well as this one does. There's an initial license fee for each part of the forum including the main board, the gallery, the chat room, the store, the calendar, etc. Those licenses needs to be renewed every 6 months if you want to keep the software up to date. And SSL certificates can run in the hundreds every year or two depending on the term you purchase. This is all referring to self-hosted licensing. You can simply pay them $130/month and get everything including their hosting, which is what we've been doing up until a few days ago. So make no mistake about it, a podcast is a much less costly venture, and one that is much more likely to generate revenue.  

 

That is interesting, I guess I thought podcasts were much more expensive, because of the Woodtalk patreon campaign. I think the $1000 goal is no more non-woodworking ads, but still have ads. So I made the assumption (perhaps wrongly so) that you guys must not be breaking even at $1000 per month. But maybe because you are using that money for other things beyond general podcast costs. Podcosts. Heh. 

I definitely see what you describe, podcast starts - episode 2 they are asking for money. To me they haven't proved they deserve any. You guys are a valuable resource for my learning and I'm super glad I can contribute in a meaningful way.

Oh and FYI, Reddit is how I ever ended up on youtube looking at Marc's videos, and I'm pretty sure another reddit thread (every month or so one pops up) titled "what woodworking podcasts do you listen to?" made me start WoodTalk, and I think the guys talking about the forum got me here. But to me reddit is a forum on crack. So a forum was responsible for me coming to this forum. 

[thewoodwhisperer]

Wood Talk has a pretty good sized audience for an audio show about woodworking. But even then, http://woodtalkshow.com doesn't get a ton of traffic and the files can be hosted for free. So the site lives on my regular server and doesn't cause trouble. Concerning Patreon, remember that 2 of the 3 of us do this stuff for a living and Shannon basically treats it as a second job. As such, it's nice to be paid for our efforts. So Patreon was never about breaking even, but more about being paid for our "work."

[Llama]

40 minutes ago, Mike. said:

well you know

Someones basement. It's usually sounds like an episode of Charlie Brown... womp womp 

[Chestnut]

@thewoodwhisperer I wanted to give you feed back on being nit picky with audio quality. I listen to wood talk show in my car a lot which has a pretty high end stereo. Every other spoken word recording I've listened to i have to jack with the settings so the bass doesn't blow my ear drums. Your recordings are so perfectly balanced i don't have to touch anything. It's awesome i appreciate it and love the show.

[Cliff]

2 minutes ago, Chestnut said:

@thewoodwhisperer I wanted to give you feed back on being nit picky with audio quality. I listen to wood talk show in my car a lot which has a pretty high end stereo. Every other spoken word recording I've listened to i have to jack with the settings so the bass doesn't blow my ear drums. Your recordings are so perfectly balanced i don't have to touch anything. It's awesome i appreciate it and love the show.

I agree. Not necessarily the bass, but I can usually here everyone the same. Several other podcasts I have to turn it way up to hear everyone and then there is always one person that is 90x louder than everyone and cracks my skull with their voice. 

[thewoodwhisperer]

8 minutes ago, Chestnut said:

@thewoodwhisperer I wanted to give you feed back on being nit picky with audio quality. I listen to wood talk show in my car a lot which has a pretty high end stereo. Every other spoken word recording I've listened to i have to jack with the settings so the bass doesn't blow my ear drums. Your recordings are so perfectly balanced i don't have to touch anything. It's awesome i appreciate it and love the show.

Thanks for the feedback guys. I have the same issue with some of the podcasts I listen to so i do my best NOT to provide whacky levels. A little post-processing goes a long way.

[Tpt life]

46 minutes ago, Mike. said:

  I keep the bass low in my car, because, well, I am not a teenager. 

Goes both ways. Geriatric hearing loss affects extremes with very low going first. 

Jumping on the band wagon appreciating good audio in the podcast and live streams. 

[Cochese]

1 hour ago, thewoodwhisperer said:

Thanks for the feedback guys. I have the same issue with some of the podcasts I listen to so i do my best NOT to provide whacky levels. A little post-processing goes a long way.

The thing I respect about you the most is nothing is done in half-measure.

Anyway, I'm glad our emails were a net positive. It's nice to be back.

[rodger.]

1 hour ago, Cochese said:

The thing I respect about you the most is nothing is done in half-measure.

This comment is spot-on.   Your strive for excellence is inspiring.

[thewoodwhisperer]

Thanks guys! Sitting in an airport feeling like crap because I caught a bug at WIA and this did a good job cheering me up!