Roubo - Alder too soft?

[bglenden]

The usual advice for a workbench is to buy a hardwood that is plentiful and cheap in your area. In my area (New Mexico), that is Alder ($1.60/bf). I am worried however that it might be too soft, it has a Janka hardness of 590 (Poplar = 540, Soft maple = 700-900 depending on type). Any opinions on whether it is just too soft?

[Eric.]

Too soft.  And it's not about how easily it dents, not that it isn't a factor...alder has no mass.  You want a heavy bench.  Pick a different species.

[Brendon_t]

After just finishing a project in alder, I would definately say too soft and too light. Maybe a  hundred bf would be heavy enough but it wouldn't be in my top 5 choices..

[bglenden]

OK thanks. What I suspected/feared.

[JosephThomas]

I would use fir before alder... At least for the weight

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[Dave H]

I built my bench out of construction lumber from local BORG it is mostly hemlock 2x6's laminated together I've had it for 5 yrs.  It dents but in my opinion that just adds character, at the time I built the bench money was the issue as far as weight the bench weighs about 500lbs . 

[Brendon_t]

30 minutes ago, higtron said:

as far as weight the bench weighs about 500lbs . 

How did you come to that number? I don't see any way that bench hits 500lbs without lead sandbags under it.

[Dave H]

So is that your thing brandon just hang out here so you can call BS on any thing you don't agree with, have you lifted one end of my bench I don't remember you being in my shop. I can lift one end high enough to get it to set on some moving dollies I rigged up to move the bench across the shop from where I built it to where it now lives I'm over 6' tall weigh 250 worked doing heavy construction my entire adult life I can barley pick one end of it up so knowing what I can lift my best guess is about 500lbs but that's just my opinion, but it probably looks a lot smaller on your extremely smart phone. 

[Eric.]

Take it easy...it's a legitimate question...I wouldn't think it's close to 500 pounds either.  I wonder if mine is 500 and my wood has twice the Janka rating yours does.  Plus a shelf.

Point is, regardless...you want a bench to be HEAVY.  While that bench probably doesn't skate around when you plane on it, the denser the material, the more impact it will absorb when chiseling and the more efficient each blow will be.  You may consider that a minor factor, but I would disagree.  And I would urge anyone who's preparing to build a bench to use the densest material they can find, even if it costs more.  Construction material, in my opinion, is no good for a furnituremaker's workbench, especially one who intends to use a fair amount of hand tools.  That's my opinion.  I'm allowed to have it.

[bushwacked]

39 minutes ago, Eric. said:

  That's my opinion.  I'm allowed to have it.

no, you take that and your air dried walnut hippy wood and go elsewhere 

 

I would agree with all the above, heavier the better! nothing like beating on something and the whole table shakes and scootches across the floor.

[JosephThomas]

49 minutes ago, Eric. said:

That's my opinion.  I'm allowed to have it.

Sure. If someone is considering 2x4s and 2x6s then I agree that's a waste of time...but I think substantial construction lumber (6x6s or larger) is far better than nothing though. Just my 2 cents.

[Immortan D]

Any wood works great for a workbench if you're only gonna use it for napping, or as a power tool stand for your router with the occasional hand tools use.

[Dave H]

so let me get this straight do you guys think my bench top is 1 1/2" thick? I glued 2x6s together on edge the top is a solid slab 4.5" thick 8' long 3' wide once the top was glued together setting on saw horses I could get it stood up but it was to scary to get on the other side to lower it down as I had to flip it over several different times to cut the joinery at that point I figured the top weighed over 300lbs.  this is a video of me flipping the top.

 

[Tpt life]

This is a hilarious conversation. Hemlock is heavier than maple as a rule when wet and is not much lighter than maple when dry. 

*As I check your board foot totals against forestry average estimates, I figure your top should come in at around 250. This is just based on averages and only checking my gut. I am not trying to pick a fight Hig. 

[Barron]

I don't think it would be too soft, but I know some people make a fetish out of hardness for bench tops, but I agree you might want more mass, although you can get that by putting in a shelf and adding some weight. 

[estesbubba]

Mine is hard maple and when the low winter sun hits it I see plenty of dents after just over a year. That said no way I would use alder - like others side it's about the mass. Oh, and my small dents would be a lot bigger in alder, which will start out as cosmetic, but eventually will make for a crappy looking top, which would bother me.  

[Eric.]

There's more to mass than simply scooting a bench around the shop while planing.  Sandbags can fix that.  But pounding mortises on a lightweight benchtop is a waste of inertia, and therefore, energy.  SPF, poplar, alder...all lightweight materials.

I built my bench out of soft maple (red maple, the hardest of the soft maples) and I wish I had used hard maple.  That's an opinion based on experience with certain materials, not conjecture.

[Brendon_t]

2 hours ago, higtron said:

So is that your thing brandon just hang out here so you can call BS on any thing you don't agree with, have you lifted one end of my bench I don't remember you being in my shop. I can lift one end high enough to get it to set on some moving dollies I rigged up to move the bench across the shop from where I built it to where it now lives I'm over 6' tall weigh 250 worked doing heavy construction my entire adult life I can barley pick one end of it up so knowing what I can lift my best guess is about 500lbs but that's just my opinion, but it probably looks a lot smaller on your extremely smart phone. 

2 hours ago, higtron said:

 

You need to put on some big boy panties.  My question was percedual in nature because I'd love to know what my bench actually weights. 

Not enough to check back on this thread though. 

[BonPacific]

I'm not really a Schwarz-aholic, but I'm going to drop a quote from him in here.

Quote

So if the question about wood species is a red herring for bench builders, what do I think is the most important question about bench design? Here it is: How soon can you start building?

https://blog.lostartpress.com/2007/11/10/what-wood-would-be-good-what-wood-wouldn’t/

He lists basswood (410 janka), as "Probably not, except in a pinch". If you can't find anything better locally for less than $2/bdft, go for it. I did a quick search, and Paul Seller's does his videos on a bench built out of Scots Pine (540 janka).

So soft isn't really a problem, there are plenty of folks who are happy with better construction-lumber (SYP, DF, Hemlock, not talking white pine) workbenches. Weight is important, but there are plenty of ways to add weight. I would have preferred a softer wood when I was flattening my workbench anyways. At worst I see you flattening the top somewhat more frequently.

I'm using a 6' maple benchtop that was my Great Grandfathers. It's old maple, a little over 2" thick, and very hard, but pretty damn light. So I added ~80 pounds of barbell weights to the base, and braced it against a sidewall for planing. Is it perfect? Certainly not, but it works for me, and I get a smile every time I use it. This bench has been used to make a lot of furniture over the years.

If you do go the Alder route, consider up-sizing the components. Make the top and legs extra thick to account for the lighter and slightly more flexible wood.

 

32 minutes ago, Eric. said:

There's more to mass than simply scooting a bench around the shop while planing.  Sandbags can fix that.  But pounding mortises on a lightweight benchtop is a waste of inertia, and therefore, energy.  SPF, poplar, alder...all lightweight materials.

Now, I'm not an engineer, nor will I pretend to be, but I think that kind of pounding is more affected by rigidity, structure, and how the energy is transmitted. This is why we are all told to cut mortises right over the leg, it's the best place for transferring that energy down to the floor. A properly built bench will be very rigid, with heavy-duty joinery that helps carry that force away.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Brendon_t said:

How did you come to that number? I don't see any way that bench hits 500lbs without lead sandbags under it.

 

3 hours ago, higtron said:

So is that your thing brandon just hang out here so you can call BS on any thing you don't agree with, have you lifted one end of my bench I don't remember you being in my shop. I can lift one end high enough to get it to set on some moving dollies I rigged up to move the bench across the shop from where I built it to where it now lives I'm over 6' tall weigh 250 worked doing heavy construction my entire adult life I can barley pick one end of it up so knowing what I can lift my best guess is about 500lbs but that's just my opinion, but it probably looks a lot smaller on your extremely smart phone. 

Never insult a Wood Worker's:

1. Mother
2. Workbench
3. Wife

[Isaac]

1 minute ago, BonPacific said:

Now, I'm not an engineer, nor will I pretend to be, but I think that kind of pounding is more affected by rigidity, structure, and how the energy is transmitted. This is why we are all told to cut mortises right over the leg, it's the best place for transferring that energy down to the floor. A properly built bench will be very rigid, with heavy-duty joinery that helps carry that force away.

To your point. I often wonder why people don't consider a reinforced top instead of solid option. There is a reason we use rafters and floor joists instead of layers upon layers of plywood for a floor system. A reinforced bench top could be only marginally deeper and ultimately wind up being much stronger and lighter than a solid option. As you point out, the mass could be handled by adding the weight (which gives the advantage of being removable at another time.)

All that being said, my little 2'x4' bench has a storage shelf on the bottom that I keep my planer and mini router table and loose routers on, providing some extra mass.

[Eric.]

I put no stock in Schwarz's opinion. He uses nails in furniture, so...

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[BonPacific]

3 minutes ago, Isaac said:

To your point. I often wonder why people don't consider a reinforced top instead of solid option. There is a reason we use rafters and floor joists instead of layers upon layers of plywood for a floor system. A reinforced bench top could be only marginally deeper and ultimately wind up being much stronger and lighter than a solid option. As you point out, the mass could be handled by adding the weight (which gives the advantage of being removable at another time.)

All that being said, my little 2'x4' bench has a storage shelf on the bottom that I keep my planer and mini router table and loose routers on, providing some extra mass.

Hmm, I'm not sure a reinforced top like that would work for everyone, I can see a few problems.

• Holdfast/Benchdogs: You need a certain thickness for holdfasts. sure you could thicken certain sections, but that ends up being a lot more work engineering your bench than it would take to just build a traditional style.
• Rigidity: Floors are strong, but they aren't that rigid. You may not notice it, but there's more than a little bounce in most floors. This is one of the things that makes a trussed floor more comfortable/less fatiguing to walk on than a concrete slab.
• Wood movement. Since you'll still be using a laminated top with edge grain, you've got wood movement issues when trying to reinforce it like a floor or roof. I suppose you could change to plywood in this theoretical build, but at that point you have a torsion box, which are popular for assembly, but not for a handtool workbench.

Your point about the top being lighter in a reinforced option isn't really a benefit. It's just a drawback that may be easily addressed. If you are focusing on hand tools, almost no one wants a lighter traditional workbench. Now there are specialty designs for when portability is an issue, but that's different.

[Isaac]

15 minutes ago, BonPacific said:

Hmm, I'm not sure a reinforced top like that would work for everyone, I can see a few problems.

• Holdfast/Benchdogs: You need a certain thickness for holdfasts. sure you could thicken certain sections, but that ends up being a lot more work engineering your bench than it would take to just build a traditional style.
• Rigidity: Floors are strong, but they aren't that rigid. You may not notice it, but there's more than a little bounce in most floors. This is one of the things that makes a trussed floor more comfortable/less fatiguing to walk on than a concrete slab.
• Wood movement. Since you'll still be using a laminated top with edge grain, you've got wood movement issues when trying to reinforce it like a floor or roof. I suppose you could change to plywood in this theoretical build, but at that point you have a torsion box, which are popular for assembly, but not for a handtool workbench.

Your point about the top being lighter in a reinforced option isn't really a benefit. It's just a drawback that may be easily addressed. If you are focusing on hand tools, almost no one wants a lighter traditional workbench. Now there are specialty designs for when portability is an issue, but that's different.

Your point about hold/fasts is a good one, and would need to be addressed.

I should have been more clear. I'm a structural engineer. There is no sense in directly comparing the stiffness of a floor system to a bench. I was merely pointing out that to provide equivalent stiffness to a floor or any other system, using solid material is substantially less efficient than doing it with a joist set up. If you don't plan to use the space under your bench for any use anyways, there is nothing limiting you to a certain depth. You could make a bench that is much stiffer using spaced 8" or 10" joists, or something similar. Deeper joists would also give you more material depth for your connections, allowing them to be stronger and more rigid against rotation. As previously noted, this wouldn't address the mass question, if you optimized too much, it might become too light, and would require some sort of weight to hold it down, but I don't think that is a deal breaker, since apparently people sometimes need to do that for their solid benches anyways. 

 

 

[BonPacific]

4 minutes ago, Eric. said:

I put no stock in Schwarz's opinion. He uses nails in furniture, so...

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*Shrug* I don't really care about him personally, but he's built/used a lot of benches. Certainly more than I have.

Are nails a deal-breaker? I mean even the Hall brothers used screws for their Greene & Greene pieces. G&G isn't my style, but I can't deny their craftsmanship. To each his own I guess. 

3 minutes ago, Isaac said:

I should have been more clear. I'm a structural engineer. There is no sense in directly comparing the stiffness of a floor system to a bench. I was merely pointing out that to provide equivalent to stiffness to a floor and other system, using solid material is substantially less efficient than doing it with a joist set up. If you don't plan to use the space under your bench for any use anyways, there is nothing limiting you to a certain depth. You could make a bench that is much stiffer using spaced 8" or 10" joists, or something similar. Deeper joists would also give you more material depth for your connections, allowing them to be stronger and more rigid against rotation. As previously noted, this wouldn't address the mass question, if you optimized too much, it might become too light, and would require some sort of weight to hold it down, but I don't think that is a deal breaker, since apparently people sometimes need to do that for their solid benches anyways. 

Ah, I'll defer to your knowledge on the rigidity/stiffness issue then. Wouldn't this effectively be an English Workbench?

[Eric.]

At least the screws are hidden. People can do whatever they want, but anyone who nails their furniture together has a totally different philosophy about woodworking than I do. I know he does it in a "historical context," but I don't care...mediocrity sucks.

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