Popular Post wtnhighlander Posted February 21, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Even an alder or white pine bench is better than no bench at all. My observation from personal experience. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaac Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 12 hours ago, BonPacific said: *Shrug* I don't really care about him personally, but he's built/used a lot of benches. Certainly more than I have. Are nails a deal-breaker? I mean even the Hall brothers used screws for their Greene & Greene pieces. G&G isn't my style, but I can't deny their craftsmanship. To each his own I guess. Ah, I'll defer to your knowledge on the rigidity/stiffness issue then. Wouldn't this effectively be an English Workbench? There you go, yeah, that should be super stiff, as long as whatever goes on top has reasonable thickness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 12 hours ago, wtnhighlander said: Even an alder or white pine bench is better than no bench at all. My observation from personal experience. Of course, but I don't know why conversations always default to what's "acceptable." How about what's best? Isn't that what this whole thing is about? Doing things the best you can? I guess I just don't relate to people who half ass things. Build your benches out of freaking marshmallows, see if I care. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandorLush Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 I guess my 80lb solid core door has no business doing anything more than pocket screws and red oak 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Eric. Posted February 21, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Sigh. I know people aren't this dense. It's not about what you can get away with. It's about building the best thing that you can build, regardless of what you're working on. Otherwise I don't get the point of building anything at all. But that's me...an "elitist." And I know that's a crime. Mediocrity rules. Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post CandorLush Posted February 21, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Sorry @Eric, haha, I couldn't resist, I have a half dozen maple logs waiting to be turned into my "real" bench. I do think that, if I was putting as much work as you need to do for a Roubo, I would want to go with a more traditional, harder wood but I live on the east coast surrounded by maple cherry birch and walnut. Weight wise, SYP, especially if you can get Longleaf would be far better than the alder, almost twice as heavy and more than twice the hardness. Could you do it, sure, but I do have to agree with Eric, although maybe more gently, that you should give yourself a little more credit and don't do the Roubo equivalent of putting 2.99 hinges on a genuine mahogany cabinet. I was going to just go to Lowes to get the glass for this cabinet I am building but, the more I thought about it, I couldn't justify putting $15 glass that is the main focus point in a project I am charging $1000+ for. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheperd80 Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Wow... forestry estimates... thats a good one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 32 minutes ago, sheperd80 said: The mass of the top, vs energy spent chopping mortises makes about as much sense as pumping up your reeboks to jump higher. That's simply not true. Try pounding out some mortises on a hollow core door if you don't believe it. The less dense the bench material, the closer to that end of the spectrum you will be. If that doesn't bother you, fine. But don't pretend it's not a reality of physics. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mat60 Posted February 21, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Save what money you can on the bench and get a Dommino. No pounding mortises. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 A good way to think about it is the bench should absorb the mallet blows... If the bench is lacking in mass, you are spending your energy pushing the bench around. I'd agree that after a certain amount of mass there are diminishing returns. You don't need a 10 ton steel welders bench (although that wouldn't be bad for mortises....), but you should be using maple or something dense. By the way, I really want to make a marshmallow bench now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, sheperd80 said: Wow... forestry estimates... thats a good one. The forestry service is the one entity that put money into finding average weights over thousands of footages of material. Almost all other sources quote those studies and they are freely accessible. Pick with care. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 My options for my Roubo were lignum vitae or balsa. It was either 800 tons based on some quick common core math if I used the balsa or 18pounds 4 ounces with the lignum vitae. So I went with soft maple. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheperd80 Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 That's simply not true. Try pounding out some mortises on a hollow core door if you don't believe it. The less dense the bench material, the closer to that end of the spectrum you will be. If that doesn't bother you, fine. But don't pretend it's not a reality of physics. Ok come on now, youve called me out on false equivalencies before... Were talking about solid hardwood here. And not in the middle of some thin sagging bench. My argument was that if youre chopping mortises on a thick solid benchtop, positioned above or atleast near a leg, youre not going to experience any difference between alder or maple, or spend any more time chopping. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk The forestry service is the one entity that put money into finding average weights over thousands of footages of material. Almost all other sources quote those studies and they are freely accessible. Pick with care. I wasnt calling BS on your sources... just couldnt believe you went there to disprove someones claimed bench weight, thats all. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 29 minutes ago, sheperd80 said: youre not going to experience any difference between alder or maple I disagree. And the false equivalence is the one between lightweight wood species and pumping up your Reebok's. On one end of a scale you have a hollow core door, on the other you have four inches of hard maple. Your bench will fall somewhere on that scale. Species makes a difference. Damn right it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BonPacific Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 15 minutes ago, Eric. said: On one end of a scale you have a hollow core door, on the other you have four inches of hard maple. Your bench will fall somewhere on that scale. Species makes a difference. Damn right it does. Are we considering cardboard a species of wood now? I agree with you that species makes a difference, but comparing hollow-core (cardboard torsion box) door to anything solid is a bit of a stretch. I think everyone can agree that a Balsa-wood bench is going to be bad, and a Hard Maple bench is pretty nice. We do disagree as to where along that spectrum it starts being good or even fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Just about every suburb has a backyard hobbyist lumber yard. There are plenty of "Matt Cremona's" with backyard lumber mills out there with lots of acreage and trees they cut down and dry in their "solar kilns." Around here I can get backyard lumber mill soft maple steadily for $2 a board foot, and I live in the wealthiest county in America. I would imagine in some areas in the northeast and northwest where hard maple is more abundant you could acquire for roughly the same price if not cheaper. At that price, alder, cedar, hemlock, BORG lumber, etc shouldn't even be considered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, sheperd80 said: I wasnt calling BS on your sources... just couldnt believe you went there to disprove someones claimed bench weight, thats all. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk It was not my goal, nor do I think I succeeded if it were. 50 lbs of wiggle after five times that weight is in that less than 20% deviation. I went to the "bible" because I have absolutely zero experience with alder. When the book is open it is easy to check the tables for hemlock, with which I have a lot of experience. I think SYP would be one I would prefer over hemlock, but that is getting awfully picky in a realm I would avoid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 55 minutes ago, BonPacific said: Are we considering cardboard a species of wood now? I agree with you that species makes a difference, but comparing hollow-core (cardboard torsion box) door to anything solid is a bit of a stretch. I think everyone can agree that a Balsa-wood bench is going to be bad, and a Hard Maple bench is pretty nice. We do disagree as to where along that spectrum it starts being good or even fine. It's not a comparison, it's hyperbole to make a point. Doesn't make it wrong. And again...yes, alder would be "fine." Who cares? The point of building something is not to do it "fine." The point is to do it right. Put fifty or a hundred hours into something built out of dogshit. It's a waste of time and dogshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BonPacific Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 21 minutes ago, Tom Cancelleri said: Just about every suburb has a backyard hobbyist lumber yard. There are plenty of "Matt Cremona's" with backyard lumber mills out there with lots of acreage and trees they cut down and dry in their "solar kilns." Around here I can get backyard lumber mill soft maple steadily for $2 a board foot, and I live in the wealthiest county in America. I would imagine in some areas in the northeast and northwest where hard maple is more abundant you could acquire for roughly the same price if not cheaper. At that price, alder, cedar, hemlock, BORG lumber, etc shouldn't even be considered. Depends wildly on where you live. In my neck of the woods its Cedar, Doug Fir, and Alder available cheap (plus various pines). Trying to find any other domestic hardwood is tricky. If your lucky you can find some maple or Cherry, but its been the exception rather than the rule. Now it may be that the sawyers I've contacted just aren't the best ones. If any other PNWesterner has a source they're willing to share, I'd love to be corrected. 39 minutes ago, Mike. said: I am curious if the people defending alder as a suitable choice for a bench have ever held a chunk of alder in one hand and a similarly sized chunk of maple in the other? Alder is soft. Alder is spongy. The stuff nearly bounces when you drop it. And here is the thing, we are talking about maple. Hard maple is not very expensive, especially if you can find some that has not been selected for color. I'm working with a load of alder right now. I've used both air-dried and kiln-dried stuff. Yes, it isn't heavy, but at least the stuff I've used is not "spongy" in any way. It will dent, but not too deeply. No, it's not as nice as Maple for a bench, but it's not going to fall apart with one good whack or kill OP's puppy either. Back to OP's point, specifically about hardness. The Janka ratings are scientific, but I stepped into the shop over lunch and did a quick (non-scientific) comparison for you. On the left is a chunk of Alder, on the right a chunk of Curly (Hard) Maple. The first comparison is a single strike (gravity drop from head height) with my Ash mallet. The maple dent is about half as wide as the alder dent, and they are about the same depth. On the second comparison, I hit (gravity drop from head height) both with a 20oz Framing hammer, The alder dent is just shy of the whole hammer head. The Maple dent is about half of the hammer head in diameter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodenskye Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 I can understand cost being a huge factor in the decision making, but I have to agree that I would rather use the best and hardest wood I can find to build my life long bench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legenddc Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Tom Cancelleri said: Just about every suburb has a backyard hobbyist lumber yard. There are plenty of "Matt Cremona's" with backyard lumber mills out there with lots of acreage and trees they cut down and dry in their "solar kilns." Around here I can get backyard lumber mill soft maple steadily for $2 a board foot, and I live in the wealthiest county in America. I would imagine in some areas in the northeast and northwest where hard maple is more abundant you could acquire for roughly the same price if not cheaper. At that price, alder, cedar, hemlock, BORG lumber, etc shouldn't even be considered. Where do you get your lumber? I'm in NOVA too and have only been to Vienna Hardwoods so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Where do you get your lumber? I'm in NOVA too and have only been to Vienna Hardwoods so far. Vienna hardwoods is a mess though you could find a few gems in there. There's a new place in Manassas called hardwoods in the rough that is decent that also sells tools. There is local woods which is in berryville, which has stuff that is only local to this area, and a whole lot of slabs. Lastly, my favorite place, but it's 80 miles away, which is CP Johnson lumber. They've got amazing curly maple and a killer discount bin with stuff they deem not figured enough. Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 You can get 8/4 hard maple commons from Bell Forest for $3.10/bf plus shipping. At that price there's no reason to use anything else. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 46 minutes ago, Eric. said: You can get 8/4 hard maple commons from Bell Forest for $3.10/bf plus shipping. At that price there's no reason to use anything else. This plus their promo of free shipping with orders over $100 that they seem to run about every 2 month or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post estesbubba Posted February 21, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 I've had both a solid core door and hard maple bench... While the Roubo is a fun project, it's not one you'll want to do again anytime soon. Like others have said, build it right and the best you can the first time. Several people on here that used soft maple later wished they had used hard, and alder will dent looking at it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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