Chet Posted February 23, 2020 Report Share Posted February 23, 2020 2 hours ago, pkinneb said: I did and I find it nice to have an assortment. I think once you get into a groove on what size you use most you can just buy those but starting out I found it to be a nice kit. I would agree with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlyoak Posted February 23, 2020 Report Share Posted February 23, 2020 I spoke with engineers at site bond. They said the glue creeps. I was asking about bread board ends with dominos. I told them I glue the entire joint and never have had any failure. They say with kd lumber, the creep will resolve the problem. They also said that tight bond will not be allowed on structural like laminated beams because of the creep but especially valuable for furniture to accommodate the movements. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark J Posted February 23, 2020 Report Share Posted February 23, 2020 I was at The Woodworking Show yesterday and Snodgrass was talking. He said he always uses T-II on end grain cutting boards rather than T-III because III is more brittle than II when cured. So there are differences between the Titebond products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyJack Posted February 23, 2020 Report Share Posted February 23, 2020 5 hours ago, Mark J said: I was at The Woodworking Show yesterday and Snodgrass was talking. He said he always uses T-II on end grain cutting boards rather than T-III because III is more brittle than II when cured. So there are differences between the Titebond products. I take it this was his opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlyoak Posted February 23, 2020 Report Share Posted February 23, 2020 6 hours ago, Mark J said: T-III because III is more brittle than II when cured. Thank you. I do a lot of bread board ends. Many were made with T11. I'm going to get some 11for more creep. Creep is the word that I got from Franklin. Who is Snodgrass. Is he with Franklin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark J Posted February 23, 2020 Report Share Posted February 23, 2020 Alex Snodgrass of bandsaw fame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoewoodworker Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 The 500 will do most projects. Where the 700 would be useful is on a mid-size project where you want the mortises deeper/the tenons longer. Typical 700 projects would be furniture like beds, large tables, exterior or interior solid wood doors, and outside projects like pergolas, etc. I have both and, after having the 700 for about a year, I have finally used it for a project which, while not all that large, benefitted from longer tenons than I could make with my 500 for some of the joints. I have never been a believer in using the 700 for smaller projects with the Seneca adapters. My only reason is that the 500 and 700 are designed for projects of different magnitudes. It is very difficult to use the 700, adapters or not, on smaller pieces. On the other hand, the 700 can create much stronger joints where heavy duty strength is needed. If I had it to do over again, I may not buy the 700 because I have found only rare uses for it that I could find another solution for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post derekcohen Posted February 29, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted February 29, 2020 On 2/21/2020 at 9:50 PM, BillyJack said: A Domino is a production tool. If your concerned about a M&T joint failure you can simple pin it.... I have both a Domino DF500 and a DW biscuit joiner. Both have their uses, for example, dominos made decent joins for frames (for frame-and-panel doors) when building my kitchen.. This saved a lot of time and effort when there were around 25 frames to build. Biscuits are preferred to dominos for aligning thicknessed boards in a glue up. Note: I see many rushing off to purchase a Domino tool and selling off their biscuit joiners. One does not replace the other. They are similar machines and overlap in their tasks, but they also differ in their strengths and weaknesses. For example, the shallow and long mortice of a biscuit is preferred for strengthening a mitred edge than the deep and narrow mortice of a domino. I hesitate to refer to the Domino as “mortice-and-tenon”. The joint it makes is a loose tenon. This is, as Billy Jack, noted, a production joint. It lacks the design and application range of a true tenon, which can vary in size and type for different applications. In the furniture I build, I only use true mottice-and-tenon joinery. I understand (and accept) that many want to use dominos and biscuits to replace this, but it is not the same and will have a short life span. For example, repair is difficult on these joints. I build furniture with traditional joinery as longevity is important. I assjme that someone at some time in the future may wish to make a repair. None of this is intended to disparage dominos or biscuits, but just to create a perspective. I am very impressed with the DF500, and it has lots of uses. Such as creating mortices for attaching table tops. I considered the larger 700 when purchasing a Domino, and am happy I went with the smaller machine as it fits better with the size of furniture I build. I cannot imagine needing larger than 10mm dominos. Regards from Perth Derek 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlyoak Posted March 1, 2020 Report Share Posted March 1, 2020 On 2/28/2020 at 7:55 PM, derekcohen said: dominos and biscuits to replace this, but it is not the same and will have a short life span. I feel a well made joint that the pieces fit and needed modest clamp pressure might not last as long as a M&T joint, but using titebond 2 or 3 it will last for decades. I made a cherry 2" coffee table top. Jointed, clamped and glued with titebond in the 70's. I saw it a year ago and it looked like new. It even floated in a flooded house during huricane Katrina. If the M&T does last longer it may not matter. If the world allowed me, I would go back to M&T. Getting people to pay for what they cant see is tough. And competition can be fierce. And I won't work for 50 cents an hour. If I thought failure was likely I would never use dominoes. Improper sizing of the domino could cause failure. Same for a tenon. No doubt, there is more art it the M&T. And I appreciate that skill set. I mean no disrespect .I especially enjoy all the pictures of and comments of amazing things you do. You have rare talent. But I do expect much more than a short lifespan from my domino joints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted March 1, 2020 Report Share Posted March 1, 2020 On 2/28/2020 at 6:55 PM, derekcohen said: I hesitate to refer to the Domino as “mortice-and-tenon”. The joint it makes is a loose tenon. This is, as Billy Jack, noted, a production joint. It lacks the design and application range of a true tenon, which can vary in size and type for different applications. In the furniture I build, I only use true mottice-and-tenon joinery. I understand (and accept) that many want to use dominos and biscuits to replace this, but it is not the same and will have a short life span. For example, repair is difficult on these joints. I build furniture with traditional joinery as longevity is important. I assjme that someone at some time in the future may wish to make a repair. Derek I hate to argue with you, as your knowledge is far and above what i will probably ever have. Why do you assume that as soon as the domino comes out that loose mortise and tenon joinery will ensue? I use my domino to make traditional M&T all of the time. 50% of my projects usually. The tool makes a mortise, very similar to a router a hallow chisel mortise a, mortising machine or hammer and chisel. It's just a mortise, how you fill that mortise with may be different. I'm not commenting to anger people or be contrary I just want a mortise machine to be viewed as a mortise machine and that's it. This tool just creates blind spots, people see it and assume it MUST be used in X manner. If someone told you, that you could only ever create rip cuts with your table saw and that it wasn't meant to do ANYTHING else you'd probably interject and have issue with that statement. To say that loose mortise and tenon joinery won't last as long may be true, are we talking 5%, 10%, 15%, 50%? Again it all comes down to glue area If my loose tenon is 50cm Long and 28cm deep and the glue bond is stronger than the wood bond how does the type of joinery impact the lifespan of that glue? I wish i had a way to test this but I anticipate that even at 30 I'll be long dead before I find out which lasts longer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyJack Posted March 1, 2020 Report Share Posted March 1, 2020 As I said years ago. It creates two glue joints and not 1 with M&T. "Glue is stronger than the wood itself"...not in this case... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekcohen Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 6 hours ago, Chestnut said: Derek I hate to argue with you, as your knowledge is far and above what i will probably ever have. Why do you assume that as soon as the domino comes out that loose mortise and tenon joinery will ensue? I use my domino to make traditional M&T all of the time. 50% of my projects usually. The tool makes a mortise, very similar to a router a hallow chisel mortise a, mortising machine or hammer and chisel. It's just a mortise, how you fill that mortise with may be different. I'm not commenting to anger people or be contrary I just want a mortise machine to be viewed as a mortise machine and that's it. This tool just creates blind spots, people see it and assume it MUST be used in X manner. If someone told you, that you could only ever create rip cuts with your table saw and that it wasn't meant to do ANYTHING else you'd probably interject and have issue with that statement. To say that loose mortise and tenon joinery won't last as long may be true, are we talking 5%, 10%, 15%, 50%? Again it all comes down to glue area If my loose tenon is 50cm Long and 28cm deep and the glue bond is stronger than the wood bond how does the type of joinery impact the lifespan of that glue? I wish i had a way to test this but I anticipate that even at 30 I'll be long dead before I find out which lasts longer. Hey Chestnut, you are welcome to argue I just call this discussion or debate .. that is what the forum is about. The Domino is a great machine. As pointed out above, I have one. Since building my kitchen a few years back, it has seen little use for morticing as I prefer traditional mortice-and-tenon joints. These have an advantage in that I can design and build different style tenons, such as wedged through and square, drawbored frames and drawbored breadboard ends, and haunched joints, just to name those off the top of my head. I do have mixed feelings about dominos, as I did for biscuits (and I use the latter as well). On the one hand, these are excellent production tools for speeding up work. On the downside, the joinery they build cannot be repaired. I believe that all quality furniture must be capable of repair. This is not something that only takes place in 100 years, The other mixed feeling is that joinery with these machines is so easy that it discourages the learning of traditional joinery, which is a down hill slope. Regards from Perth Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 19 minutes ago, derekcohen said: Hey Chestnut, you are welcome to argue I just call this discussion or debate .. that is what the forum is about. The Domino is a great machine. As pointed out above, I have one. Since building my kitchen a few years back, it has seen little use for morticing as I prefer traditional mortice-and-tenon joints. These have an advantage in that I can design and build different style tenons, such as wedged through and square, drawbored frames and drawbored breadboard ends, and haunched joints, just to name those off the top of my head. I do have mixed feelings about dominos, as I did for biscuits (and I use the latter as well). On the one hand, these are excellent production tools for speeding up work. On the downside, the joinery they build cannot be repaired. I believe that all quality furniture must be capable of repair. This is not something that only takes place in 100 years, The other mixed feeling is that joinery with these machines is so easy that it discourages the learning of traditional joinery, which is a down hill slope. Regards from Perth Derek Again your stuck in the mindset that this fits in X box. A mortise is a mortise, if it's 2" wide and 1" deep does it matter how I cut it? If i fill it with an integral tenon would you be able to tell me how I cut the mortise? 4 hours ago, BillyJack said: As I said years ago. It creates two glue joints and not 1 with M&T. "Glue is stronger than the wood itself"...not in this case... Looks stronger than the wood to me. This took an over head 2 handed smash to accomplish much like you'd swing an axe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 To further illustrate. This is what I'm speaking of. Is that a traditional M&T joint? Does it mater that i made the mortise with the domino? I'm desperately trying to illustrate that the domino machine makes a mortise. It makes it really easy to do loose mortise and tenon joinery but you can use the machine to make a mortise for traditional M&T joinery. I imagine if i had the 700 I could square those corners with a chisel and make through tenons as well. I guess i could use the same reference lines flip to the other side on this piece as it's small enough. That mortise is 11.5mm x 52mm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 Nice illustration, Drew. I agree that the tool used to excavate the mortise is irrelevant, as the result is the same. Regarding "loose" tenons, does anyone how much the domino shape really improves the joint as compared to dowels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnG Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 1 hour ago, derekcohen said: ...On the downside, the joinery they build cannot be repaired. I believe that all quality furniture must be capable of repair. This is not something that only takes place in 100 years, The other mixed feeling is that joinery with these machines is so easy that it discourages the learning of traditional joinery, which is a down hill slope. Regards from Perth Derek Out of pure curiosity and lack of knowledge/experience, can you elaborate on why a traditional M&T joint could be repaired and not a domino (or other floating tenon) joint? I've only been in this game for a few years, so it is quite possible that I am overlooking something, but I don't see why this would be the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 And I don’t mean to tag team anyone as my experience is ions behind most here but, my question is the same as @JohnG, how does repair enter into the equation? Please elaborate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekcohen Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Chestnut said: To further illustrate. This is what I'm speaking of. Is that a traditional M&T joint? Does it mater that i made the mortise with the domino? I'm desperately trying to illustrate that the domino machine makes a mortise. It makes it really easy to do loose mortise and tenon joinery but you can use the machine to make a mortise for traditional M&T joinery. I imagine if i had the 700 I could square those corners with a chisel and make through tenons as well. I guess i could use the same reference lines flip to the other side on this piece as it's small enough. That mortise is 11.5mm x 52mm I am not disagreeing that the Domino makes a good mortice. For example, I use it to make the mortices for holding down table tops .. However, the mortice created is quite simple on its own. It can be developed further with hand tools. This is what I recommend. As it stands, it only creates the bases for a loose tenon joint. And unless one has the knowledge of joinery, this is what it will remain. Because of its simplicity, I would argue that most users do not know about the range of mortice-and-tenon joinery that can be used for different situations. In their hands it just becomes another biscuit jointer. How many of these mortice-and-tenon joints have you used? https://www.craftsmanspace.com/knowledge/mortise-and-tenon-woodworking-joints.html One of the most used mortice-and-tenon joints I use is the drawbored joint. This pulls the joint together mechanically. Dominos rely on glue. The two joints are different, not just in versitility, but also in reversibility. Good discussion Regards from Perth Derek p.s. the table above has large mortice-and-tenons ... These ones appear that they could have been done with a Domino, however they were drawbored from the inside. Cheers Derek 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekcohen Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 1 hour ago, JohnG said: Out of pure curiosity and lack of knowledge/experience, can you elaborate on why a traditional M&T joint could be repaired and not a domino (or other floating tenon) joint? I've only been in this game for a few years, so it is quite possible that I am overlooking something, but I don't see why this would be the case. John, in part it comes down to the glue one uses. It is less likely that one who works with dominos will use hide glue, which is both reversible (with moist heat) and also one can re-glue it (it is okay to add hide glue on top of hide glue, which one cannot do with a white or yellow glue). This is partly a mindset thing. The second factor is that one is attempting to undo a joint which has glue on both ends, and not just on one end (so there is greater strength in this situation). Thirdly, there are a vast range of mortice-and-tenon joints to choose from, as I posted a link to above, and some are designed to be pulled apart with little damage. Regards from Perth Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 Your criteria and comments seem awfully subjective based off your opinion that if it's not done the way it was done 100 years ago it's not proper. I'm ok with that. To me i don't care how i make the hole in the wood. If the mortise meets specifications I don't much care if Spock cut it with a light saber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekcohen Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 I'm sorry I wasted your time with this information. Regards from Perth Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyJack Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 Agree.... Derek .... It's not the first argument that a Domino places #2 to a traditional M&T and was argued. We made several hundred bar stools and the domino's failed and argued the Domino could not be at fault.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnG Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 10 hours ago, derekcohen said: John, in part it comes down to the glue one uses. It is less likely that one who works with dominos will use hide glue, which is both reversible (with moist heat) and also one can re-glue it (it is okay to add hide glue on top of hide glue, which one cannot do with a white or yellow glue). This is partly a mindset thing. The second factor is that one is attempting to undo a joint which has glue on both ends, and not just on one end (so there is greater strength in this situation). Thirdly, there are a vast range of mortice-and-tenon joints to choose from, as I posted a link to above, and some are designed to be pulled apart with little damage. Regards from Perth Derek Thanks Derek, I appreciate your response. I had considered the hide glue idea, but dismissed it because it's more related to the glue than the joint. I agree that domino users are probably not using hide glue with their domino joints, however I also think that many (if not most, based on forums, YT, FWW, and woodworkers I personally know) woodworkers are not gluing their traditional M&T joints with hide glue. Yellow glue seems to be the most used glue by a long shot. That being said, those who use hide glue also seem to be more inclined to the "traditional" joints, which goes along well with your statement that it is a mindset thing. I have encountered your second point while repairing our dowel-jointed dining chairs. They were not made with hide glue and while some of the joints had come loose over time, others remained very tight and were difficult to get apart. In some of those, the dowel broke and splintered, so I was left needing to drill them out. It was certainly more difficult than steaming the joint loose, but was by no means not repairable. Some time I will need to use hide glue on a joint and forget about it in my shop for a while, then try to reverse it. I've heard conflicting info on how easy it truly is. Agreed that there are many types of joints that benefit from having mechanical strength and/or can be pulled apart with minimal damage. I had considered those separate from the prior discussion, but many of them are joints that the domino cannot create by itself, so I do see your point. I got to tour a shop that makes wooden chairs and enjoyed seeing their interlocking M&Ts used, and they would dry one piece below EMC and one piece above EMC so that once the joint was put together, it would lock itself in place when the moisture content settled in the middle. Very cool. 1 hour ago, Chestnut said: ... I don't much care if Spock cut it with a light saber. 1 hour ago, derekcohen said: I'm sorry I wasted your time with this information. Regards from Perth Derek I don't think anyone's time has been wasted. It's a good discussion and a learning opportunity for all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legenddc Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 Thanks for the discussion guys. What's the purpose of a haunched tenon? I think regardless of which camp you fall in, everyone can agree both will last longer than Ikea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted March 3, 2020 Report Share Posted March 3, 2020 7 hours ago, legenddc said: Thanks for the discussion guys. What's the purpose of a haunched tenon? They can fill the slot in a frame where a slot has been cut for a panel. Just an application, not necessarily suggesting that specific situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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