Veritas Low Angle Block Plane

[wdwerker]

Anyplace near you carry Lie Nielson planes ? Take your straightedge & light and compare. 

[Steve B Anderson]

5 minutes ago, wdwerker said:

Anyplace near you carry Lie Nielson planes ? Take your straightedge & light and compare. 

I’m 1-1/2 hours from Houston. I might just fix this one and move on. I will contact Lee Vally again and express my dissatisfaction. I just feel like I’m accepting a Powermatic jointer with warped beds.

[Tom King]

Just for curiosity, can you post a picture with a straightedge on it lengthwise too?

[Steve B Anderson]

6 minutes ago, Tom King said:

Just for curiosity, can you post a picture with a straightedge on it lengthwise too?

I will, give me a few minutes 

[drzaius]

To me, that doesn't look too good. What is the gap there?

[Steve B Anderson]

One pic is with the square across the entire sole length and the other is on the sole only and not on the adjustable toe.

 

[Steve B Anderson]

4 minutes ago, drzaius said:

To me, that doesn't look too good. What is the gap there?

I haven't measured the gap yet but its not as bad as other brands I've had in the past. 

[Steve B Anderson]

Here is another pic with the square crosswise on the sole.

 

[RichardA]

You need to get in touch with them and send them the pics before you do anything to it.

[Steve B Anderson]

1 minute ago, RichardA said:

You need to get in touch with them and send them the pics before you do anything to it.

You are right Richard. I will send them the pics before I do anything. 

Our prayers are for you and your wife during these difficult times. 

[Coop]

I’m embarrassed. I looked at the first pic and couldn’t imagine which view of the plane you were showing. Now I see that it is your square that has the lettering and not the plane. No alcohol involved. 

[Steve B Anderson]

3 minutes ago, K Cooper said:

I’m embarrassed. I looked at the first pic and couldn’t imagine which view of the plane you were showing. Now I see that it is your square that has the lettering and not the plane. No alcohol involved. 

One more and you’ll be all right Coop 

I’m having a few myself 

[Cheeset202]

Steve check out Christopher Schwarz video on trouble shooting a bench plane.  He basically says not to check the sole of the plane with a straight edge looking up at a light, stating you will inherently see light under the straight edge.  He places the plane  gently upside down in a vice and uses a feeler gauge.  He states that 0.003” is plenty flat.  I have the same block plane so I will use an engineers square to see what mine is like.  I never checked any of my planes this way, just honed up the blade and they cut beautifully.  Not sure how much gap you would get using his method but the pic you shows looks greater than 0.003” but Chris states that the gap is magnified by the light reflection on the sole of the plane.

[Steve B Anderson]

Thanks Cheeset I’ll check out the video.

[drzaius]

Good discussion guys. I tend to over analyse these things & end up overdoing the quest for perfection.

[derekcohen]

Steve, have you used the plane? Does it work as expected, regardless? 

I commented on another forum about a thread like this. What I said was that complaints about tools and companies should only be aired on a forum when the experience with the company is unsatisfactory. Deal with the company first. Give them a chance to make it right. If they prove to be incompetent or disinterested, then let them have both barrels. We want to know. 

Too many on the forums seem to want to make the forum their first port of call for a complaint. Yes, I do understand that it can be frustrating, but when a company will work with you, then give them the chance.

If you really want to read a thread that deserved to be aired, then go here: http://lumberjocks.com/topics/256929

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Chestnut]

I'd measure it but i just checked my 2 LN planes and i could see light but couldn't get a .0015 feeler through any where. Even my old vintage Stanley planes. My new Stanley block plane had a.0015 gap front to back but nothing side to side

[Tpt life]

I am ok with the post. It pointedly asked “Am I being too picky?” Of all the places to have concavity, the placement of that one should not be problematic. 

[gee-dub]

On 7/2/2018 at 4:44 PM, Steve B Anderson said:

I guess we just had to get to know each other

So true.  Certainly we are half of the equation when it comes to our customer service experience.  Glad you persevered and got them to see where you were coming from.  LV has never left me feeling like they didn't go the extra mile and that is over many years of being a customer.  Although they offer many things that I have no interest in, I shop them first for anything they carry that I use.

[Rob Lee]

On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 8:13 PM, Steve B Anderson said:

Here is another pic with the square crosswise on the sole.

 

Hi Steve -

 

Firstly. let me apologise for the problem you are having - we should have done better on the first try. I will discuss with our Service folks, and get this put right. I will also have the plane you received run through our CMM (coordinate measuring machine) to report back on what the actual tolerances were.

A few general comments on measurement -

1) seeing light under a rule or square is a good way to identify a gap - but it is not a good way to measure magnitude. Light has a tendency to reflect at low angles of incidence, and gaps will look twice the size they actually are (which is why it's a good indicator test!). Best practice would be to then measure any gap with a feeler gauge.

2) Where "flatness" is is more important than overall flatness. For centuries, planes have been made with hollow portions of the sole, corrugations, circular voids etc. . Generally - hollows are no problem - it's convexities which really affect performance. Our tolerances are based on a plus zero, -.00x"  - so from perfectly flat, to a little bit hollow, but within a tolerance. Your plane sole is defined by a locus of points that traverse the wood... not just a single area or region. Putting these points in motion makes a the plane blade follow a dead straight path. That why wood bodied planes can work as well as metal bodied planes - despite any sole variation due to wood movement.

3) Smaller planes may have proportionally larger visual differences in flatness - a .001" gap in a 1.5" sole will look much larger than a .001" gap across a 3" sole. From a production standpoint - smaller castings can be more difficult to machine, as there is less cross-sectional area to distribute clamping forces in fixtures - castings will "bow" when clamped, and flex back when released. Given the shape of plane bodies, some degree of hollow is virtually assured. Perfect flatness will be very difficult to achieve with surface grinding alone - a lapping/linishing process would be necessary as a final step.

Nonetheless - there is clearly an opportunity for us to have worked through the issue you have differently, and we will learn from this.

Cheers -

Rob Lee

Lee Valley/Veritas

 

 

 

 

 

[wdwerker]

Thanks for the response Rob ! I've collected quite a few Veritas tools over the years and always had good results with them. It means a lot these days when a company steps up and does the right thing. 

I really appreciate the info and explanation about flatness on plane soles. I've got the same low angle block plane and thoroughly enjoy using it. I got it, tried it, it worked well and I try to keep it sharp. Just never thought to worry about the sole being flat unless I wasn't getting good results, then I would have started investigating.

Oh and Welcome to the Forum ! If you have time drop in and share your knowledge. 

[Steve B Anderson]

3 hours ago, Rob Lee said:

Hi Steve -

 

Firstly. let me apologise for the problem you are having - we should have done better on the first try. I will discuss with our Service folks, and get this put right. I will also have the plane you received run through our CMM (coordinate measuring machine) to report back on what the actual tolerances were.

A few general comments on measurement -

1) seeing light under a rule or square is a good way to identify a gap - but it is not a good way to measure magnitude. Light has a tendency to reflect at low angles of incidence, and gaps will look twice the size they actually are (which is why it's a good indicator test!). Best practice would be to then measure any gap with a feeler gauge.

2) Where "flatness" is is more important than overall flatness. For centuries, planes have been made with hollow portions of the sole, corrugations, circular voids etc. . Generally - hollows are no problem - it's convexities which really affect performance. Our tolerances are based on a plus zero, -.00x"  - so from perfectly flat, to a little bit hollow, but within a tolerance. Your plane sole is defined by a locus of points that traverse the wood... not just a single area or region. Putting these points in motion makes a the plane blade follow a dead straight path. That why wood bodied planes can work as well as metal bodied planes - despite any sole variation due to wood movement.

3) Smaller planes may have proportionally larger visual differences in flatness - a .001" gap in a 1.5" sole will look much larger than a .001" gap across a 3" sole. From a production standpoint - smaller castings can be more difficult to machine, as there is less cross-sectional area to distribute clamping forces in fixtures - castings will "bow" when clamped, and flex back when released. Given the shape of plane bodies, some degree of hollow is virtually assured. Perfect flatness will be very difficult to achieve with surface grinding alone - a lapping/linishing process would be necessary as a final step.

Nonetheless - there is clearly an opportunity for us to have worked through the issue you have differently, and we will learn from this.

Cheers -

Rob Lee

Lee Valley/Veritas

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the explanation Rob. I measured the gap and it is only a tight .003” and if a little hollow does not affect performance this plane is totally acceptable. I guess it’s the machinists in me that makes me expect perfection in everything.

I must say I’m a little embarrassed now for making a bid deal out of this and I sincerely apologize. I’ve always had good experiences with Lee Vally and I really appreciate your response to this as it shows again the high level of customer support Lee Vally is know for.

I want to apologize again and thank you for educating me on this.

Steve

[Just Bob]

Don't apologize, not only did I learn something, Lee Valley/Veritas gained a customer that used check them last because of price.  Now I will go there first and know my money is well spent.  

[Cheeset202]

No need to apologize Steve, I would have done the same thing if I put a straight edge on my planes and saw a gap!   I have been buying Veritas tools from Lee Valley for many years and have never been disappointed with their products or customer service.  I also never knew there was a “Rob Lee” of Lee Valley, very impressed with his response to this topic.

[Rob Lee]

2 hours ago, Steve B Anderson said:

Thanks for the explanation Rob. I measured the gap and it is only a tight .003” and if a little hollow does not affect performance this plane is totally acceptable. I guess it’s the machinists in me that makes me expect perfection in everything.

I must say I’m a little embarrassed now for making a bid deal out of this and I sincerely apologize. I’ve always had good experiences with Lee Vally and I really appreciate your response to this as it shows again the high level of customer support Lee Vally is know for.

I want to apologize again and thank you for educating me on this.

Steve

Hi Steve -

The apology is ours. I'm always glad to participate in discussions like this - if no one asked questions - the rest of us wouldn't learn anything!

From my perspective - we should have got it right after the first issue. I will be reviewing our process with staff, recognizing that mistakes are how we learn, and get better.

Cheers -

 

Rob