New Table Saw

[Chip Sawdust]

Tbh I’m not all that thrilled with the design of my small PM mortiser. It has a strong motor and the frame is stout, but aligning the fence to cut long mortises is a bit of a pain. If you don’t get it just right, your mortise will have steps in it, which means ultimately you’ll have a wide mortise. But it’s still better than doing them all by hand, especially the side by side mortises. I’ve never spoken to PM customer service though. I would’ve thought they were far superior to other manufacturers considering they’re the “gold standard” of tools. I’ve had excellent service with Laguna, on the flip side, and they got a bad rap for a long time for their customer service. 

[pkinneb]

I think he should reconsider the SS. It’s an amazing saw and the technology takes a lot less time to include in the process then you think. As I’ve stated on multiple occasions I started on a Rigid, then used a PM66 for twelve years, and now a SS. I have used others as well nothing comes close to fit and finish, quality, easy of use, documentation, etc. and on the bright side if you can get used to the down time you’ve had on the pm2000 you can get used too the few seconds the technology adds to the process. 

[..Kev]

49 minutes ago, pkinneb said:

I think he should reconsider the SS. It’s an amazing saw and the technology takes a lot less time to include in the process then you think. As I’ve stated on multiple occasions I started on a Rigid, then used a PM66 for twelve years, and now a SS. I have used others as well nothing comes close to fit and finish, quality, easy of use, documentation, etc. and on the bright side if you can get used to the down time you’ve had on the pm2000 you can get used too the few seconds the technology adds to the process. 

I really don't want this to become a SS vs Everything else discussion but, I do not foresee getting the SS.

A quick search on these and other forums shows very quickly the causes for the trips and rarely are they from personal contact.  In each case, the person was out the cost of a blade as well as the cartridge.  In my case, this would be well over $200.00.  Assuming they had an extra cartridge and blade on hand, they'd be back up and running fairly quickly.  Many of those trips are from hitting a miter gauge set improperly.  My (and many) miter gauges are aluminum and don't actually damage the blade but, on the SS, that blade is ruined.

It has to do more with cost and down time than time it takes to make blade changes.  

Yes, my saw is down and costing me dearly because of it but, that's not a normal occurrence so, we need to be honest about that.  I got a lemon (not just the color) and will get that rectified soon I hope!  Exactly what that's going to be?  I don't know yet.  I'm still waiting to hear from PM.

The only way a SS will be in my shop that I can think of is if they approach me and want to add one for free.

UPDATE:  Seems ACME Tools finally allowed the review on their site!

[pkinneb]

Yeah I knew that going in  Unfortunately Sawstops business practices along with its fanboys have really turned some folks off the saw, myself included for many years, I find this unfortunate. FWIW 3+ years zero triggers...oh man I should not have typed that LOL 

Good luck with whatever you choose and thanks as always for sharing your content and your knowledge!

 

[JBag09]

  I know I don’t post here much due to what I have to go through to log in everytime. But I’ve been following this thread since the beginning and kindly allow me to throw my 2 cents in. 
  I have to say I agree with what Kev has to say about why he doesn’t want a SS. At my day job we have 13 SS’s for about 14 years now, I’ve been the lucky one to have to learn the ins and outs of these saws. Sorry to saw I’m less than impressed. Don’t get me wrong, I really like the safety feature. I believe it’s saved 2 peoples fingers. However I have had to change the cartridge and the blade at least a dozen times for just what was described happening. For the people’s who’s fingers were saved it’s more than worth it. 
  A number of years back at a tool show I attended I got to talking to the SS rep and asked him what the reasoning was that the blade had to stop as well as drop below the table, he really didn’t have an exact answer for me. As fast as it drops that should be good enough. Change the cartridge and back on your way. 
  Now recently I’ve come across Felder having the PCS where they have the same basic idea but have greatly improved on the safety feature of SS. Certainly not a machine for your average hobbyist, but the technology is there. This is where I feel the table saws will be headed in the future. Here’s a link to the machine I mentioned. 
  https://www.felder-group.com/fg-en/pcs.html

[..Kev]

1 hour ago, JBag09 said:

  I know I don’t post here much due to what I have to go through to log in everytime. But I’ve been following this thread since the beginning and kindly allow me to throw my 2 cents in. 
  I have to say I agree with what Kev has to say about why he doesn’t want a SS. At my day job we have 13 SS’s for about 14 years now, I’ve been the lucky one to have to learn the ins and outs of these saws. Sorry to saw I’m less than impressed. Don’t get me wrong, I really like the safety feature. I believe it’s saved 2 peoples fingers. However I have had to change the cartridge and the blade at least a dozen times for just what was described happening. For the people’s who’s fingers were saved it’s more than worth it. 
  A number of years back at a tool show I attended I got to talking to the SS rep and asked him what the reasoning was that the blade had to stop as well as drop below the table, he really didn’t have an exact answer for me. As fast as it drops that should be good enough. Change the cartridge and back on your way. 
  Now recently I’ve come across Felder having the PCS where they have the same basic idea but have greatly improved on the safety feature of SS. Certainly not a machine for your average hobbyist, but the technology is there. This is where I feel the table saws will be headed in the future. Here’s a link to the machine I mentioned. 
  https://www.felder-group.com/fg-en/pcs.html

Appreciate your comments!  Curious why you're having issues logging in?  Is there something I can do to help with that issue?

[wtnhighlander]

Regarding the SS funtionality, as I understand it, jamming the brake into the rotating blade provides much of the impetus needed to retract the blade quickly enough to provide protection for the user. In essence, the "flesh" sensor is the unique technology, and the brake is a least-cost (to manufacture) engineering solution to make it work. Felder's PCS system requires a great deal more advanced mechanism to retract the blade, hence its inclusion only on very large, expensive machines (so far).

Don't forget Bosch's job-site saw. Although the sensing tech was similar enough to SS that patent infringement was apparently enforcable in the US, the non-destructive retraction method was certainly suitable for the lower mass of such a machine's arbor and trunnion. Guess we'll never know if it would work for a high-end, user grade cabinet saw.

[Chestnut]

9 hours ago, wtnhighlander said:

Regarding the SS funtionality, as I understand it, jamming the brake into the rotating blade provides much of the impetus needed to retract the blade quickly enough to provide protection for the user.

IIRC from the slow motion vids the blade typically stops before it retracts. So the stopping is the safety measure and the retraction is probably just a side benefit to prevent the saw from destroying it's self.

[drzaius]

The energy from the stopping blade is what powers the retraction.

[Chestnut]

12 hours ago, JBag09 said:

However I have had to change the cartridge and the blade at least a dozen times for just what was described happening. For the people’s who’s fingers were saved it’s more than worth it. 

With so many triggers have the saws developed bearing issues? With how much force is involved i feel like repeated triggers are goign to cause premature bearing failure or at least ruin the tolerances and cause more blade runout.

8 minutes ago, drzaius said:

The energy from the stopping blade is what powers the retraction.

Changing the force direction to down is a good way to give the force an outlet, that isn't going to go directly into the bearings and support bushings on the saw.

[..Kev]

The Saga continues!

Called PM with the issue last Wednesday..  Just got an email saying they forgot about it until today and now can't find my information.

What lousy customer service!

 

[gee-dub]

I must confess to an ongoing state of wonder at some folks blind loyalty to PM.  Not speaking of you specifically Kev.  We've all seen the blazing mustard shops pictured on the web.  I remember the heartbreak of watching Delta go down in flames.  Steel City looked like the new contender when the Orion folks were involved.  Alas, time had its way with them as well.  Seeking the best of a given machine or device regardless of badge or paint can be a half-adventure and half-frustration.  I applaud your efforts.  Ever onward, we're behind you ;-)

[Tpt life]

I feel that PM sank faster than the Titanic. The mustard yellow shops here have nothing newer than five years. I’d suspect leadership change or reorganization toward streamlining. Not all with leadership experience understand customer service. Pushing the message out on social media is the fastest way to see change. 

[JohnG]

It’s a shame you’ve had so many problems with the saw and the customer service. Hope you get it sorted out one way or another.
 

If this is a sign of their future, maybe they’ll have to change their slogan from “the gold standard” to “the baby poop standard”

[..Kev]

Well, at least I think I've gotten their attention..  Just got a call from someone claiming that management told him to call me.  Had me trouble shoot a few things that I'd already been through and told me he'd call me back in a couple hours.

[wtnhighlander]

The thing is, their margins can't be so good that multiple service visits and multiple (significant) replacement parts should be more cost effective than just replacing the machine. They must be well along the diminishing returns curve.

[..Kev]

Just now, wtnhighlander said:

The thing is, their margins can't be so good that multiple service visits and multiple (significant) replacement parts should be more cost effective than just replacing the machine. They must be well along the diminishing returns curve.

Yea, I don't know what the local repair guy charges them but, between that and parts, they have to be in really deep in this one!  And now all the negative publicity should be costing them a bundle!  Hoping they just cut their losses and refund but, I have a sneaking suspicion they'll try and replace the motor..

Part of the trouble shooting the guy wanted me to do was a test cut...lol. I tried to tell him the saw wouldn't run long enough to do a test cut..  He asked me to try anyway..  Tripped the breaker in less than 3 seconds...lol

[..Kev]

Something for all you electricians out there..  Because I'm not one!

Saw is on a 20amp breaker per the manual.  Electrician told me it's drawing 157 amps on start up.  PM guy said that's a little high but, it's not uncommon to see spikes over 100 amps on start up..

Can someone please explain that to me?  I always though the breaker size was the max start up draw?

[Tpt life]

Twice is the way I have heard it offered. I have been told a 7 amp circ saw might draw 14 on startup and then sustain 7. By that logic, I’d expect nothing north of 40. Interested what the experts say. 

[Chestnut]

I think 157 amps is a bit high the fact that the motor never starts and the breaker trips is evidence that something is wrong.

It's hard to get a good gauge of inrush current but somewhere around 300% isn't absurd so a FLA of 15 amps would spike 45. FLA on the 3hp should be 15 amp max as if it was higher it'd require a 30 amp circuit. (FLA = full load amps)

Does the blade still spin? Is there an awful grinding noise or anything if you rotate the blade manually?

What brand is the motor? Powermatic used to use Baldor, which i assumed were good units.

[..Kev]

Just now, Chestnut said:

I think 157 amps is a bit high the fact that the motor never starts and the breaker trips is evidence that something is wrong.

It's hard to get a good gauge of inrush current but somewhere around 300% isn't absurd so a FLA of 15 amps would spike 45. FLA on the 3hp should be 15 amp max as if it was higher it'd require a 30 amp circuit. (FLA = full load amps)

Does the blade still spin? Is there an awful grinding noise or anything if you rotate the blade manually?

What brand is the motor? Powermatic used to use Baldor, which i assumed were good units.

Everything spins freely, no strange noises.

On startup, it spins but, you can hear it bogging before it finally trips the. breaker.

I think PM quit using the Baldor motor some time ago..  Not sure what's in this one.

[Just Bob]

1 hour ago, ..Kev said:

Saw is on a 20amp breaker per the manual.  Electrician told me it's drawing 157 amps on start up.  PM guy said that's a little high but, it's not uncommon to see spikes over 100 amps on start up

Kev, my Grizzly has a 3hp Baldor.  I just checked it and after 4 startups it average 74amps on start up and 8.5amps running.   I checked on line and that seems to be close to normal.  Maybe the PM guy is more than a "little high".

[..Kev]

7 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

Kev, my Grizzly has a 3hp Baldor.  I just checked it and after 4 startups it average 74amps on start up and 8.5amps running.   I checked on line and that seems to be close to normal.  Maybe the PM guy is more than a "little high".

What?  You mean he might be a little biased? 

[Minnesota Steve]

The startup current shouldn't be that high at the breaker... there is a big current, but that's why there's a startup capacitor.  There is a centrifugal switch which adds the capacitor into the loop at startup but then it should cut the capacitor out of the circuit when the motor gets up to speed.

I had an issue with my dust collector where the centrifugal switch was disconnecting too soon and this was causing the overload breaker on the motor to trip.   Never had the circuit breaker trip.   I found this article from grizzly that explained how to adjust it and it's been fine since.  https://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/g2529_m.pdf

 

I'm just surprised that you are seeing such a high load at the circuit breaker, there should be an internal breaker on the saw that should trip well before your circuit breaker.   The specs on the 3hp model say it has a max current draw of 14.5 Amps at 230v.   A recommended breaker size of 20amps is good because you want this oversized as running things at max capacity for extended periods is bad.   That's why code requires 20 amp circuits in the kitchen for fridges and other appliances because so many of them run at a full 15 amps when running and often for extended periods.

 

I really hope powermatic fixes this for ya.   I just think it has something to do with the switching circuitry, or maybe the starter capacitor and switch.  Really in the grand scheme of things the electronics of an induction are pretty well known, it hasn't changed in like 70 years.  But I still think it should trip the saw's overload circuit before it trips your circuit breaker.   That really surprises me.

 

[..Kev]

6 minutes ago, Minnesota Steve said:

The startup current shouldn't be that high at the breaker... there is a big current, but that's why there's a startup capacitor.  There is a centrifugal switch which adds the capacitor into the loop at startup but then it should cut the capacitor out of the circuit when the motor gets up to speed.

I had an issue with my dust collector where the centrifugal switch was disconnecting too soon and this was causing the overload breaker on the motor to trip.   Never had the circuit breaker trip.   I found this article from grizzly that explained how to adjust it and it's been fine since.  https://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/g2529_m.pdf

 

I'm just surprised that you are seeing such a high load at the circuit breaker, there should be an internal breaker on the saw that should trip well before your circuit breaker.   The specs on the 3hp model say it has a max current draw of 14.5 Amps at 230v.   A recommended breaker size of 20amps is good because you want this oversized as running things at max capacity for extended periods is bad.   That's why code requires 20 amp circuits in the kitchen for fridges and other appliances because so many of them run at a full 15 amps when running and often for extended periods.

 

I really hope powermatic fixes this for ya.   I just think it has something to do with the switching circuitry, or maybe the starter capacitor and switch.  Really in the grand scheme of things the electronics of an induction are pretty well known, it hasn't changed in like 70 years.  But I still think it should trip the saw's overload circuit before it trips your circuit breaker.   That really surprises me.

 

Appreciate it!  

That's one of the questions me and the local repair guy has is why it isn't tripping the overload switch on the motor.

I'm still waiting for a return call from PM to see what they're going to do..