Next Shop Questions

[Mark J]

Let me just say from the start that this is definitely a first world problem.  

My wife and I plan to downsize our house.  It's complicated, and it's something we've been working through for a while, but at this point it looks like it will be nearby rather than out of state.   And our focus has evolved to favor new construction over an existing home.  A change of homes is a change of shops, which, it turns out promises to be quite disruptive.   However, it still cracks open the door to the dream shop conversation.  (Although, I have to constantly remind myself that a daydream does not always easily convert into a  PAID dream).

My present workshop is in the basement with 8' ceilings (to the joists).  It is an irregular, but squarish space of about 662 sf.  There is insulation in the joist spaces, which was an unsuccessful attempt to dampen sound.  The walls and floor are concrete, so it is essentially uninsulated.  I heat with a big electric unit and AC is not needed; the space is always cold.    
Going forward it seems to me that there are three options for locating a shop on the new property.  A free standing building, an additional attached garage or the basement.  They each have some tradeoffs.  

At one time my dream was a large huge free standing workshop.  When I started to understand the costs (with plumbing and electricity), the additional land needed, the increased property taxes, heating and cooling a separate building and the fact that I'd have to put on boots and parka to trudge through the snow go to or from the workshop, the idea became less appealing to me (though I'm still jealous of other peoples' shops).   

An attached garage would be easily accessible from the house without going outside.  It would also be at grade level for easily moving equipment in and out.   There is some hope of keeping dust out of the house.   Tall ceilings, and it could have some windows for light, view and ventilation.  And there's the garage door that could be opened on nice days.  On the minus side, that same garage door is difficult to insulate making the space difficult to heat and cool, although not all the walls would be exterior.  Garage floors are  sloped (what I've seen is about 1"/10') and this may cause difficulty with machinery setup/alignment, or difficulty when moving machinery on mobile bases in the workshop.  The option for an additional attached garage that we have been exploring is a one car wide, two car deep, tandem arrangement.  If we could get this 15 x 40 that would get me to 600 sf.

Third option would be the basement.  The new construction projects we have looked at have well insulated basement walls with 9' ceilings so two big improvements over my present digs.  But what natural light you get is via deep window wells, no sight line to the outside .  Not sure what it's like to work in an insulated basement, but it will still need HVAC.  So how to condition the space given it's dusty nature, and how to keep that dust out of the house and house's HVAC are questions.  Noise in the living spaces when machines and DC are running.  There is way more than 600 sf of space in the basement.   We're talking to builders about a straight set of outside stairs to the basement, so machinery wouldn't have to go through the house.  

So here are some questions: 

First if you had a choice would you rather have a 15' x 40' rectangular shop (more wall space) or a 24' x 25' square shop (more floor space)?

Would a sloping floor be a potential problem?  I measured one tandem garage and got 1" in 10', so a slope of about 0.5*.  

The HVAC and dust management issues.  How would you heat and cool a garage vs an insulated basement?   How do you keep dust out of the household HVAC system?  

Noise in the basement vs noise in the garage?

Grade level vs. stairs.  OK that's not even a question, but how important would you rank grade level access?  
 

[Tom King]

A garage doesn't have to have a sloping floor, at least not around here.

I would vote for squarish rather than be limited to 15' width.  Cab you upsize it to 30x36?

Grade.  Planning from the start, no need to plan stairs only.

[pkinneb]

So here are some questions: 

First if you had a choice would you rather have a 15' x 40' rectangular shop (more wall space) or a 24' x 25' square shop (more floor space)? I would prefer 24' x 25' while both would work for sure 15' seems a bit narrow to me.

Would a sloping floor be a potential problem?  I measured one tandem garage and got 1" in 10', so a slope of about 0.5*.  No all my shops have had sloping floors and it is a non issue. FWIW they slope garage floors here due to snow melt (it is code) I assume Chicago is similar

The HVAC and dust management issues.  How would you heat and cool a garage vs an insulated basement?   How do you keep dust out of the household HVAC system?  I have forced air heat and AC in my current shop but if I was doing it now I would use a Minisplit. RE the garage doors I have insulated garage doors on both garages and no issues with excessive heat loss. I leave my car garage at 55 and since it is well insulated with in floor heat its pretty efficient. The shop I leave at 6o unless I'm in it and then turn it up to about 68 no issues at all. With 2x6 construction and good insulation while I'm not sure per se what they cost to heat it doesn't seem out of whack to me at least.

Noise in the basement vs noise in the garage? While you can isolate a room in a basement see my theater build here https://www.avsforum.com/threads/full-circle-cinema-build.3069152/ It would be a lot cheaper and simpler to handle noise in a garage.

Grade level vs. stairs.  OK that's not even a question, but how important would you rank grade level access?  It's really nice being able to roll stuff in through a garage door. I'm sure @Chestnutcan chime in about stairs he has a great basement shop and I a haven't heard him comment on it being a problem.

[gee-dub]

We all have our opinions.

 

First if you had a choice would you rather have a 15' x 40' rectangular shop (more wall space) or a 24' x 25' square shop (more floor space)?

- Square

Would a sloping floor be a potential problem?  I measured one tandem garage and got 1" in 10', so a slope of about 0.5*.  

- A garage must slope around here.  An auxiliary building does not have to.  No garage door = not a garage.

The HVAC and dust management issues.  How would you heat and cool a garage vs an insulated basement?   How do you keep dust out of the household HVAC system?  

- Shop and House HVAC systems should be separate.  A small mini-plit will handle a 24 x 25, no problem.  When I had an attached shop the rule was you could go from the house to the shop but had to go around the long way to get from the shop to the house.  This greatly reduced dust transfer.

Noise in the basement vs noise in the garage?

- Garage generally only has one common wall so noise control can be focused.  Basement may only have the roof/floor but the walls of the basement may also be the foundation of the house.

Grade level vs. stairs.

- I even hate the bump at the threshold so "no" to stairs for me.

Added opinion . . . saw cut your expansion joints. 

Much more mobile base friendly.

[JohnG]

My basement shop is about 17’ x 24’. I don’t think I would want to go narrower. Right now for the narrow width I have horizontal lumber storage on one wall with some file cabinet storage underneath, a metal/wood shelf unit on the opposite wall, and I have just enough space between for my 36” PCS TS with router table insert. The aisles are comfortable to walk through, but there isn’’t enough space for anything else. Next to the metal/wood shelf, I have a rolling cart with my drum sander and my lunchbox planer. To use them, I roll it away from the wall, but when I have it out far enough to use, I can barely sneak past it to get from the infeed to the outfeed side. That issue could be avoided by having a longer shop, but it just feels a bit constraining.

 

[BonPacific]

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First if you had a choice would you rather have a 15' x 40' rectangular shop (more wall space) or a 24' x 25' square shop (more floor space)?

I'd definitely go for square over galley-style. Long and skinny shops "plug up" very quickly and it makes moving from station to station ever trickier. 15' isn't the worst I've heard of, so I wouldn't necessarily call it a deal breaker. Worst case you can always add interior walls to a square-ish shop if you're lacking space. Can't very easily fold a galley in half.

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Would a sloping floor be a potential problem?  I measured one tandem garage and got 1" in 10', so a slope of about 0.5*.  

With that little slope I doubt it would be. The normal irregularity in most concrete garage floors seems like it's already worse than that. And if you're getting this thing built check if your local code actually requires that slope or if it's just the norm because people park wet/snow-covered cars inside. Could vary depending on how your attached construction is designed/classified. Might be able to leave the garage doors off entirely and just frame the openings for later owners to punch out.

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The HVAC and dust management issues.  How would you heat and cool a garage vs an insulated basement?   How do you keep dust out of the household HVAC system?  

Tap into the main house system if that's an option, it's almost assuredly going to be more efficient than setting up a separate system just for an attached/basement shop. Most forced-air systems I've seen have a central return inside the house, even if there's a garage/basement vent, so there shouldn't be any concerns about dust getting into it.

My old attached garage shop (1950s house) did have a combustion air intake on the furnace out there, but I just threw a coarse pleated filter over it and got the thumbs-up from the furnace company. According to the service tech all new construction was going for cold-air intakes anyways.

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Noise in the basement vs noise in the garage?

I had a couple garage shops with living space above them. Didn't get any complaints from my roommates or the other renter above those. My prior attached shop had thick exterior siding and insulation between the shop and the house, and you couldn't hear anything I was doing over the TV.

Your mileage will vary though, and only your wife or housemates can say how much noise is too much. One thing I would say if you're doing the basement try putting the machine tools somewhere that isn't directly under the bedroom.
 

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Grade level vs. stairs.  OK that's not even a question, but how important would you rank grade level access?  

Very important, though I haven't actually had a shop that required stair access. It's enough of a pain just moving household stuff and completed projects up stairs, much less wood and tools.

[curlyoak]

In Florida I don't have the same challenges in my 24 x 24. My thickness planer is at the back door. I save the square footage of the outfeed side of the planer. my floor is level. I do have the slab extended under roof another 12'. And another 12' of awning.  My truck lives there and the tailgate becomes a bench on occasion. Do the rough plumbing now but build your bathroom later. Good luck with your move.

[wtnhighlander]

I'm going to temper my responses with a few questions of my own.

Skinny vs. Square: What suits your work better? Most of what you post here seems to be turnings, but maybe you do furniture as well? My shop is just 12' wide, and I find that is plenty of width for my TS, workbench, DP and BS to be used effectively, with a bit of shuffle on the bandsaw now and then. The issue becomes assembly space, when the piece starts getting bulky. But at 15x25, you would have almost double the space I have.

Sloped floor: Typical garage floor slopes aren'ta problem, unless all your mobile machines roll REALLY well!

HVAC: What is the climate like? Here, I can work all winter, withnothing more than an electric space heater. Summer is less fun, since  I don't have power for a large enough cooler. DON'T SKIMP on POWER!

Noise: Moving from my attached garage to the detached, but still close shed, reduced noise into the house dramatically. The only sounds my wife mentions now are hammering, and running the DW735 scream machine. The shed is insulated, but only with 4" R19 bats, no special care to reduce sound.

Dust transfer reduced as well. My shed has a porch, adjacent to the back deck on the house, so no trudging across the lawn.

Grade level: I'm guessing your age isn't far from mine, and stairs are less fun every year. More so, if you need to wrangle large items up and down. If you like the basement option,is a walk-out possible?

[Tpt life]

Mini-splits are made for this reason. No cross contamination, and you can leave it off while still running the rest of the house. There are no ducts to clean, just a filter to manage. 

[BillyJack]

How you setup is how you enter and exit the products you make. It's about the least amount of work bringing in ,aerial and leaving with materials. 

[BillyJack]

On 10/13/2022 at 4:42 PM, Tom King said:

A garage doesn't have to have a sloping floor, at least not around here.

I would vote for squarish rather than be limited to 15' width.  Cab you upsize it to 30x36?

Grade.  Planning from the start, no need to plan stairs only.

 

Mine  doesn't have a sloping garage and I hated it when I would pull a car in to thaw out. Would run everywhere.  For woodworking it's perfect...

[Ronn W]

I am used to a shop that is about 15" wide, so,  The first thing a thought of when you said 15 x 40 was that I could put a small finishig room and a bothroom at one end and still have over 30" of length left. I would love to have a finishing room.

[Tom King]

Not used to a car having to thaw out.  When there is even salt on the roads, ours stay in the house.

[Mark J]

Thanks for all the feedback, it's helpful to hear your opinions.  I can comment on a couple of your comments.

A sloping garage floor is the norm here, if not actually code, but I see the general opinion is that such a small slope shouldn't be a problem.  It has also occurred to me that if the door was just framed out and didn't have an actual garage door then it might not need to be sloped, but on the other hand I wouldn't want the next owner to be unable to convert the space to garage because of the lack of slope.  Something to discuss with the builder.  It also occurred to me that a level wood floor on top of the sloped concrete might be nice on the feet.  Probably too expensive to engineer and do.  

I'm a little surprised that everyone prefers a square space for a workshop.  I would have thought that increased wall space had value, but there you go.  There's going to be some compromises if this shop move becomes a reality, so I may end up having to accept a galley space and find creative solutions.  I am already telling myself that I'll have to sell the router table and the 50" SawStop with fixed outfield table and replace them with a smaller saw and integral router table.  But I'm still a little concerned that people would find 15' width a bit narrow as that's already extra wide for a one car garage; not sure I could go much wider.  A 30' x 36' foot shop would be grand!  But I fear it would cost too many "grands" to do as a free standing building.  A basement shop could easily be that big, though.  

To address wtnhighlander, my work is primarily turning, now, but in the future I would like to do more flatwork and even make furniture.  So I want to be forward thinking, but I also have to accept my realities.  I totally get what BillyJack is saying about workflow driving the floor plan, and in general I agree, but I am not a production wood worker or even wood turner.  I'd rather not have to move tools around to use them, but I'm OK with that if I have to do it to make the space work.  

Minisplit is a good idea for either a basement or garage shop. Typically I turn my heater on only when I enter my shop and shut it off when I leave.  Being a basement the temperature is somewhat moderated, but might be 55* to start and it can take an hour or so to get the room to mid or upper 60's.  A garage might have a colder starting temp.  I see that pkinneb leaves his minisplit on, but I'm wondering if I could run the minisplit on an as needed basis.  Would that be hard on the mechanics, or would it take too long to bring the temp up/down?  

[Mark J]

56 minutes ago, Tom King said:

Not used to a car having to thaw out. 

I wish.  

[difalkner]

We're in NW LA (the real LA, Louisiana ) where the humidity is often in the 90% range and temps range from mid 20's to 105° and have had a mini-split in our attached two-car fully insulated garage (now the shop) for the past 8 years or so - an excellent choice.  Ours is a 12,000 BTu Gree and it keeps the shop around 35% to 45% humidity and whatever temp I set it on, usually about 68° in the winter and 76° this time of year.  I have a pre-filter over the mini-split unit and it catches what little dust isn't caught by the DC or shop vac but I do clean the main filter every 30-45 days.

Our mini-split is also a high SEER unit at 23 so it's very efficient, uses less current than my wife's hair dryer.

[BonPacific]

As for the 15', most of what you lose is flexibility. The width gives you only so many ways to arrange tools and benches while allowing the aisle(s) to remain accessible. I certainly would have looked at 15' as a big upgrade from my old 11' wide one-car.

Rather than sell your whole 50" SawStop, you might be able to find someone to trade/sell their shorter rails (if I were closer to you I'd love to do so). I've heard good things about the sawstop in-line router add-on.

[BillyJack]

Productive shop and hobby operate the same. Smart woodworker doesn't "walk" hiimself/herself ito death in their own shop. You want to travel the least amount as possible to accomplish the task. There are many older and some younger woodworkers that have feet, back, shouder, etc problems and don't need exta stress to enjoy a hobby. When I worked at the commercial shop we made about 20 buggies. Owner told new employees "I'm not paying you to walk back and forth, take your work with you to the machine when possible"

 

Wasting money or time. You pick one, both or neither..

[pkinneb]

On 10/14/2022 at 1:25 PM, Mark J said:

I see that pkinneb leaves his minisplit on, but I'm wondering if I could run the minisplit on an as needed basis.  Would that be hard on the mechanics, or would it take too long to bring the temp up/down?  

To be clear if I were to be starting over I would go mini split, I actually have a forced air furnace /AC with ductwork. By leaving my shop at 55/60 I can bring it up to temp in minutes which is why I didn't go with in floor heat like I have in our car garage. The issue with shutting mine off, here in MN,  is things would freeze and I don't want to have to bring things in and out. I suspect heating my shop is less than $50 a month or about $300 a year which is well worth it for me YMMV.

[BillyJack]

Mine heated and coold from house central heating/cooling  unit. Keeps it about 62. I run the aditio al heat cause I wear shorts year round. I'll run it up to 75..

Motel heating/cooling unit . I just use the heating..

[Ronn W]

A possible suggestion on locating your table saw.  I have only 15" width so I put my cabinet saw against the wall.  Right side against the wall.  I get full use of my fence travel and I have never had to move it.  I have no need to walk around both sides of the saw.  I don't think I have seen others do this but it works for me and saves space.

[Coop]

@Ronn W, is your drum sander on a mobile base? 

[wtnhighlander]

My saw is near the wall on the left, and it never seems to bean issue. Difference is that my router is in the right wing, so I can't leave the bit up when making wide cuts.

[Tom King]

I was thinking this was planning from the start with a blank slate.  Do you already have the land, and attached garage has to be limited in size? 

I built several houses with a large double garage attached, and one even had a large double, plus a space to park a large motor home all under the same roof.  A larger size didn't really cost me a whole lot more, and was both a good selling point, and a better shop to set my stuff up in while we were building the house.  I always closed in the garage part first so we could move the tools in.

Now, of course, I was doing the building myself, so it didn't take much more time to build a 30 foot wall than a 24' wall.  The cost difference was only in the extra materials.

[Mark J]

@Ronn W , is your router table free standing, or is it integral to the TS?  Like Ross said, most times I have seen the router in the right wing (i.e. the fence side).  But putting the saw against one wall is a good idea (it's on a mobile base).  Although, I could certainly be well served with a smaller TS.