Shaneymack

[Eric.]

I guess I'll make a few more comments in this thread then try to get on with my day, lest I appear defensive or thin-skinned myself.

 

17 hours ago, wdwerker said:

I usually express my opinion but qualify it as one way among many, not the only way.

 

Like I said, I have firm opinions about certain things, but I never consider my opinion to be "the best" since the very nature of opinions precludes that as a possibility.  However, I do believe there is often an objectively better way to do something, and occasionally matters of aesthetics and taste can also be more black-and-white than people think.  Otherwise there wouldn't be any books on design.  Ask George Walker and I bet he'd agree.  Read any Krenov book and you'll detect a steadfast commitment to his pursuit of excellence, almost to the point that he seems arrogant.  And I suppose that's how some people feel about me and some of my comments.  Not that I put myself in the same league as Krenov...far, far from it...but the philosophy is valid, and I appreciate his willingness to be honest, and for pushing me to consider the way I do things may be inferior in some way...even at the risk of sounding like an elitist and possibly even ostracizing some readers.  That's integrity, and I respect that.

I'll also add, since we're talking about people leaving the forum...that several of the most valuable voices this forum has ever known have left because they could no longer stomach the river of bad information that flows through this place at times.  Newbie woodworkers will speak up on subjects they clearly have no idea about, give piss-poor advice on a subject, and without someone else correcting them and sounding like a jerk, their "opinion" would carry just as much weight as the experienced one just above or below it in a thread...which is a disservice to other new woodworkers, this forum, and society in general.

There have been times when I thought I might give up on the forum as well because of the way that mediocrity seems to be so commonly accepted...that people were afraid or "too nice" to tell someone they built something entirely wrong structurally, or that they could have improved a piece dramatically by making certain changes.  But ultimately I come back anyway because I think in the grand scheme of things, honesty is more useful to people than pandering.  I assume that we're all here to learn new things, and every critical comment I make is given in an effort to be constructive, even if that occasionally results in a hurt butt.  As for my propensity to be overly-argumentative at times...that's a self-indulgent character flaw of mine, and for that I do apologize.  I'm working on it.

 

7 hours ago, Immortan D said:

Now if he could kill the "everyone else is a loser" part of some of his posts, just that part... LOL

 

Again, it's never my intention to come across this way.  I think the internet is a poor substitute for real human interaction, and most nuance in personality is lost in space because people can't look each other in the eye while having conversations.  I like the vast majority of the people who participate in this forum, regardless of skill level, and I would never go out of my way to shit on someone's work simply to hurt feelings.

A perfect example is Denette's current project...he specifically asked for design opinions, and I gave him mine even though I know it's probably not what he wanted to hear.  He's been very open to the criticism and gracious in his response to it, but if his feelings were hurt he has to take at least a little bit of responsibility for opening the door.  One would hope - maybe even thankful?  What good is any response to that question if you're not telling the truth?  No one grows when they're being placated.  When I'm given an honest opinion about my work from another woodworker whose opinion I respect, I truly appreciate it even when it hurts.  It makes me think about my choices, it widens my perspective, and ultimately it makes me a better woodworker.  My goal is to pursue this craft to the best of my ability, and I contribute to other people's threads expecting they feel the same way.  I'm always interested in hearing about how other people see my pieces, and honest feedback is always welcome, whether positive or negative.

 

7 hours ago, bgreenb said:

...expectations of himself.  I think part of E's "suffer no fools" attitude sometimes comes from the fact that he demands that absolute best from himself and gets frustrated when others don't do the same, make compromises, or try to take shortcuts.  I interpret his attitude as "tough love" - a genuine desire to make you better.  And it's called "tough LOVE" for a reason.

 

Is this too long for an epitaph?  If I was better with words I would have just typed this and been done with it.  Thanks man.

 

And yes Joe, despite the fact that my kids DO both have participation trophies in their rooms - and despite the fact that I would never tell them they're meaningless (maybe I should?)...I am firmly against the whole concept.  I think it breeds a lazy society that puts no importance on pursuit of excellence, whatever the pursuit may be.  Emphasis on pursuit...I am far from a master but I know when I'm doing my best work and when I'm not, and my goal is always to do the best work I'm capable of, whatever skill level I happen to be performing at at the time.  I think when people are rewarded for lackluster performance or half-ass effort, it's a permission slip to be content in their mediocrity.

Enough of that and enough about me.

[Woodenskye]

I am sure that Shane is really busy, I mean I have 1 kid and that can take away a lot of time, he has 4 of the little buggers.  I never found Shane to be the type that would leave because of a difference of opinion with someone.  In fact he and I have had different opinions on things.  Then again, maybe he found a place where NAINA doesn't apply.

I feel bad for Eric at the moment.  He is perceived as getting blamed for someone leaving, which I doubt is the case.  When I first joined, Eric was one of the first people to welcome me.  At times he came off as abrasive, and I've stepped away from the computer early on and said what an ass.  Then it dawns on you, he was right.   I know if I need a reality check on something, if Eric reads the thread, I will get that reality check.  I appreciate the people that tell you the truth, because sometimes we have blinders on that don't want us to see the truth.  Eric doesn't need me defend or blow sunshine, he gives his time, knowledge and is always willing to participate along with others are what makes this place great. 

In the words of Forrest Gump, "that's all I got to say about that".

[bgreenb]

Here's E in a nutshell.  Make sure the video starts at 1:38.  Some people may be offended by being compared to someone known as the soup nazi, but if I know E, he will take it as one of the highest compliments you can get.

 

[RichardA]

I didn't mean to start a "Let's bash someone" thread, I just missed Shane's input, because it has always added value to a thread.  And I would damn well miss Eric's input as much as I miss HHH and Don's input. Those of us that build for ourselves or others, should be building to the very best of our ability, and if we're not, ask someone to help you improve your "best"1  That's what Eric does he gives you what you need to make your "best" way more better. Yes he's a curmudgeon at times, but who the hell isn't?  Don't alter who you are for any mofo, Eric!

[bradpotts]

I don't post a lot but I do read a lot of posts. I would say that we are mixing two aspects of the forum together. I feel like there are multiple types of post. I post a lot in the project showcase. I am mainly looking for encouragement. If I constantly got criticized for the design or the way my projects turned out, I probably would get upset. If I was asking for advice, then it is fair game for criticism. You also have to take into account skill level. If you are a new Woodworker it probably wouldn't take a lot to discourage you. As for the trained veterans, it gets tiring answering the same questions over and over. Especially when there was no attempt at trying to find the answer before the question.

[Immortan D]

33 minutes ago, Eric. said:

Again, it's never my intention to come across this way.  I think the internet is a poor substitute for real human interaction, and most nuance in personality is lost in space because people can't look each other in the eye while having conversations.  I like the vast majority of the people who participate in this forum, regardless of skill level, and I would never go out of my way to shit on someone's work simply to hurt feelings.

I've been here long enough to know you're good people, Eric, and one heck of a woodworker. In fact, you yourself, Steve, Trip and PB were the main reasons that led me to join these forums. All that knowledge and experience. Over the years, some of them took the shaper's path and left us, but others have emerged, first class woodworkers all of them. Shane is an example and there are many more.  I'd hate to see him gone. Or any other people who think they don't belong here just because they have a different workflow or use a different set of tools. We can criticize without sounding judgemental, especially when one has a badge under their name that makes authoritarian comments sound authoritative.

[prov163]

If I needed a safe space then I would go attend a University. This is a woodworking forum made up of adults. If Eric says something I consider rude, I just ignore it. Simple enough. I respect his knowledge even though sometimes he can be abrasive. It's a package deal.

I really like Shaney, have learned a great deal from him and read almost all of his posts but if he doesn't feel comfortable here, then that's his choice. I hope he'll come back and if he has an issue with Eric they should PM it out. 

This forum is about micro-adjusting, not micro-aggressions 

[Eric.]

For the record, I've sent Shane a PM apologizing and urging him to return.  I don't know how much I have to do with his absence but if any of it was because of things I said I want to rectify it.  I hope that's enough to make it water under the bridge.

Sorry to everyone for my part in wasting your time with drama.  Some people might find it entertaining but ultimately life's too short for it.  I'll make an effort in the future to be more tactful in my comments.

[Tpt life]

I would not be a part of a forum if I thought I had seen it all and knew it all. Not everyone gains what I gain or has the internet time while away from home that I have. I miss who is gone,  but know that life is more important than internet relationships and commentary. 

[treeslayer]

i'll quote the title of a book of one of my favorite authors "Ride, Shoot Straight, and speak the Truth" Elmer Kieth, the father of the 44 Magnum. that to me is Eric in one phrase, good man, speak the truth, works hard. i think Shane has thicker skin and is just busy with life.

[Llama]

We should have a swear jar type of thing... When someone hurts some feelings, they have to put in a dollar.  

Or maybe if you're feelings are hurt, you put in a dollar...

Not sure on the details, but the idea is there. 

[Eric.]

6 minutes ago, Llama said:

We should have a swear jar type of thing... When someone hurts some feelings, they have to put in a dollar.  

Or maybe if you're feelings are hurt, you put in a dollar...

I like the latter part.

[Llama]

Just now, Eric. said:

I like the latter part.

Where do I send my dollar? 

[BonPacific]

19 minutes ago, Llama said:

We should have a swear jar type of thing... When someone hurts some feelings, they have to put in a dollar.  

Or maybe if you're feelings are hurt, you put in a dollar...

Not sure on the details, but the idea is there. 

Not calling out anyone specific here, but we shouldn't blame either side. People who are offended have the right to be offended, but should understand where that offense is coming from, and see the information/knowledge/ideas behind it. People who offend others should understand the effects of their language, and not re-react when someone doesn't like how they said it, even if the information is good.

This applies to all situations, not just woodworking.

We're all adults (well, I think there's a few teenagers lurking around) and we all make mistakes. The blame in most situations lays somewhere in the middle, and we all (including myself) could stand to be a little more self-reflective.

[Janello]

Every Forum, congregation, guild, team needs an Eric. He's the guy that keeps it real. Tough love, reality check, and what the hell am I about to do all come to the surface when he shows up in a thread. There are a few occasions where I say to myself, I don't agree with Eric and don't buy what he's selling. I don't cry about it, and I don't argue with him over it...I simply ignore it., but let's face it, he's right 99.9% of the time. So if you're butt hurt, that means yer probably not agreeing with most of what he preaches, which would make you thin skinned and wrong too! lol

Just keep being Eric...we all know mamma took away your prozac years ago.. It makes you special.

By the way Eric. Purpleheart looks awesome after it's aged. So eat poop on a stick.

[Denette]

4 hours ago, Eric. said:

A perfect example is Denette's current project...he specifically asked for design opinions, and I gave him mine even though I know it's probably not what he wanted to hear.  He's been very open to the criticism and gracious in his response to it, but if his feelings were hurt he has to take at least a little bit of responsibility for opening the door.  One would hope - maybe even thankful?  What good is any response to that question if you're not telling the truth?  No one grows when they're being placated.  When I'm given an honest opinion about my work from another woodworker whose opinion I respect, I truly appreciate it even when it hurts.  It makes me think about my choices, it widens my perspective, and ultimately it makes me a better woodworker.  My goal is to pursue this craft to the best of my ability, and I contribute to other people's threads expecting they feel the same way.  I'm always interested in hearing about how other people see my pieces, and honest feedback is always welcome, whether positive or negative.

Ding ding ding!  We have a winner.  Even if we disagree about the stripe, it's not like my value as a human being is hanging in the balance here.  Are you gruff?  Yep.  Unnecessarily so?  Depends on who you ask.  But I asked for opinions!  If I ask for input and then get upset when people give me honest input, that is my fault.  That's what we are all here for - to learn, to build community, and to build furniture.  

 

Also, if you were referring to being irritated by greenhorn woodworkers giving bad advice - I feel like that might have been me a couple of years ago.  Nowadays I try my best to avoid adding a comment unless I'm confident that my comment is both necessary and valid.  Call it growing pains.

 

And anyway, @shaneymack, we need to see how those lowbacks turned out!  

 

(Watch him have just been on vacation or something - he's going to have a big surprise when he sees a whole topic dedicated to him!)

 

EDIT: I also think it's interesting and timely that when Former President Obama made his first post-presidency speech earlier today, he commented on how as a nation we seem to be isolating ourselves from the opinions of others by surrounding ourselves with only people we agree with, from social media to biased news stations.  That seems relevant to the issue of over-sensitivity that seems pretty common these days; people aren't used to being disagreed with anymore, and any criticism is misinterpreted as an attack.  I like that the WoodTalk community keeps it real and isn't populated by a bunch of yes-men just patting one another on the back.

[mat60]

I hope Shane comes back also. Great woodworker along with Eric and others here.    Eric is not that bad once you get to no him a little.

[Coop]

13 hours ago, mat60 said:

  Eric is not that bad once you get to no him a little.

Ehhh, a little too left wing for me! Damn E, your wife can reach back to here in 80 years and use all of this as a tribute to you at your funeral! 

[bleedinblue]

I certainly didn't realize he had made a conscious decision to leave, but I had noticed his absence.  I just assumed it was the natural ebb and flow of life and he was busy, but would eventually get back to business as usual.

And since everyone else is weighing in...sure Eric comes off harsh.  I can certainly see how he would turn some new members away.  Aaaaand, in every single well moderated forum I've ever been a part of, there has ALWAYS been one or two Erics.  They are also consistently the guys that give straight up, non-wavering answers without flip flopping opinions to follow the crowd, and they are always in the top tier of the experts of the subject. 

I'm on the newer end of the woodworking experience scale here and am certainly guilty of a lot of the mediocrity that Eric hates.  I also suspected he was a good guy, and after meeting him in person a couple times I'm very confident he is.  At the end of the day, look past his delivery and realize that whatever the abrasive opinion he just gave you is probably right, and if you follow his advice you'll be a better woodworker.

Come back Shaney-poo...without your influence I may never be talked into buying a Festool can opener for $750 USD.

[Eric.]

9 minutes ago, bleedinblue said:

I'm on the newer end of the woodworking experience scale here and am certainly guilty of a lot of the mediocrity that Eric hates.

I've never seen any mediocrity out of you, Frank.  Following your wife's instructions is called survival instinct, not mediocrity.   You do clean work, from what I've seen.

[bleedinblue]

10 minutes ago, Eric. said:

I've never seen any mediocrity out of you, Frank.  Following your wife's instructions is called survival instinct, not mediocrity.   You do clean work, from what I've seen.

Lol.  Thank you, I'm working on it.

[TerryMcK]

Phew! What a thread. Please come back Shane. @shaneymack

[Southwood]

Don't know why for sure he left. Might be busy, might be something else. Eric name gets posted and pile on Eric. Unless he says why he left shouldn't we leave our big kid pants on? Damn guy.

 

I heard he left because they shot Harambe . Hell I don't don't, but run with that a while 

[CandorLush]

I want dig up Harambe and shoot him again for how much people bitch about him being shot.

 

[Tpt life]

If they shot a wild one on the wild, I might be disappointed. They shot one they ruined by keeping in captivity. That is a strike in my book. They shot one in possession of a kid. If the kid lived, I can support it. This is the hijack thread, right?